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Tom
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Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19797
Sat Jan 01, 2005 9:11 PM
Sat Jan 01, 2005 9:11 PM

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sojourner, first off im a guy. Understandable mistake. Nowhere in scripture does it teach that we can chose between good and evil. It is our nature to chose evil as i showed earlier. Unless you understand mans depravity, i personally will no long argue other biblical doctrines. You can garantee i will pray for you though. Maybe it would be best if you started another post on mans total depravity. Here are 2 short books you could read by aw pink.
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Depravity/depravity.htm
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Impotence/impotence.htm
Here is an article on this site about total depravity
http://www.the-highway.com/depravity_Boettner.html


BTW i am a supralapsarian. here is an article you could read defending it. http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=553

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19798
Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:23 PM
Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:23 PM

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No scripture. Then I'll dismiss your assertion of free-will as unbiblical philosophy.


God bless,

william

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19799
Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:19 PM
Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:19 PM

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Soli Deo Gloria,

I do apologize regarding your name.
Now, regarding your comments, I understand Total Depravity. It totally denies the Incarnation of Christ in that He reconstituted man and His creation to overcome the fall. As I pointed out, the concept of limited redemption is alien to Scripture.

That you have chosen, using your free will, to believe as you do is up to you. I put my full Trust in Christ and His redeeming work that He did out of love to His creation, His entire creation. In reading just a bit regarding the view of supralapsarianism is close to being fatalistic as well, if it isn't.
In thinking about it, you have absolutely no assurance that you are even one of the elect, since you apparently do. I would be interested in how you can show from scripture that the verses typically used speaks to you in particular. I can see that it might be in theory or as a principle, but you cannot apply it personally. You can not know for a fact, until judgement if you are elect.
Also, if your God is a God of supralapsarianism, the creator of evil, sin as well as good, why make his creation suffer, for what purpose. If suffering, pain, disease, even death, an unnatural condition for man is simply to glorify Himself, then your God could hardly be love as his essence. Love is not an attribute but part of His essence. I would think you and others who accept this view have a lot of justification to make it fit Scripture.
You asked me to clarify universal redemption. You wondered if it meant universal salvation of man. Thinking on it now, why would it matter in your view. It is fatalistic. It matters not to man, he has absolutely nothing, no purpose in creation accept to be manipulated by God whereby some will be saved, whatever that really means and some lost, actaully all decreed to that positon.
However, so be it. You can comment if you will. It will not change my positoin. I will not give up the pearl of Great Price, Christ, lover of mankind.

Come to think about it, one last comment.
If I chose now to change my belief, is it I really or God manipulating me forcing me to do so. And if I did somehow change, which postion was correct for eternity. See the diabolical conundrum your view puts forth.
Again, it really does not matter what I believe, nor what you believe, it is fixed by decree before creation that I would so believe. Even if I wanted to believe Total Depravity it would be an impossibility for me to chose.

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19800
Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:37 PM
Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:37 PM

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As I pointed out, the concept of limited redemption is alien to Scripture.


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That you have chosen, using your free will,


Free-will is alien to scripture.

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However, so be it. You can comment if you will. It will not change my positoin. I will not give up the pearl of Great Price, Christ, lover of mankind.


I have no doubt of your desire to remain anti-biblical. Now I must ask your purpose here.

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If I chose now to change my belief, is it I really or God manipulating me forcing me to do so.


I see you also do not understand calvinism.


God bless,

william

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19801
Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:40 PM
Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:40 PM

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averagefellar,

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No scripture. Then I'll dismiss your assertion of free-will as unbiblical philosophy.

So you believe what,,,
There was no Incarnation?
Christ did not have a will, either human or divine?
Man is not created in God's Image?
Man is not unique among the created beasts?
If man does not have a will, then can you show from scripture that man is a robot just performing the whims of a God who yanks to and fro and has decreed every action you make from eternity as Soli Deo Gloria?
What is the purpose of man, that is all men, not just the saved? What is saved mean then?
What is the purpose of revelation? It serves no purpose if we as human beings have no personhood and really are none better than the beasts.
Why should I be outraged by wars, by the massive amount of killing of one human of another. It is all in the plan, decreed to be just so, Show me why this should not be fatalistic.
It is a form of pantheism which is the religious form of fatalism.
Me thinks it is a massive twisting of scripture
Just what do you believe?

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19802
Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:48 PM
Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:48 PM

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There was no Incarnation?
Christ did not have a will, either human or divine?
If man does not have a will...


I believe in the incarnation. I am a Christian.

I never stated anywhere that Christ did not have a will. Nor have I ever stated, anywhere, that man does not have a will. Man has a will. It is affected by his sinful nature and is not free.

I am definitely seeing a pattern of misrepresentation concerning what calvinism teaches. I think you might want to study up a bit so you can at least discuss the real thing.


God bless,

william

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19803
Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:18 AM
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What also is apparent to me as I read this thread is there are two paradigms at work here.

If I believe God's salvation is open to anyone ( and in a universal way it is), and that the 'full number' of those who will accept salvation is yet to be determined ( i.e. man is still in control in some small modicum of who will be saved and who will not be saved because of his own free will).

If I believe the above, then Christs atonement is unlimited. It is unlimited in nature to extend to the last moment whomsoever will accept the call to repent and believe.

However if I believe that in eternity past God chose who would receive salvations gift and who would reject it, then the number is fixed, and unchangeable. The work on the cross could only be applied effectively to these 'elect of God'. The atonement is then Limited in nature, and can never have an effect on those who will reject God.

This thread will never resolve in the hearts and minds of those who reject Reformation thought, and accept Arminieistic interpretation of scripture.

that just my opinion of course.

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19804
Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:24 AM
Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:24 AM

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averagefellar,

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Free-will is alien to scripture.


So, first of all Christ had no will. I believe He is in Scripture, NO?

So , if it be so, how is this text interpreted if man has no will... Matt16:24.
There are some 200 or so verses that use this terminology. The clear implication that man choses, man desires, man abides, man does many things. So you say it is something else besides man's will, namely a decree from eternity that is implied here.

I would be interested in who taught this in the first generation past the disciples. If this were true, then their direct disciples would surely proclaim it as Truth. I might have missed it, but apparently you didn't. How about 4th century.
St Augustine believed man had a will. You take his teaching of predestination and total depravity but not the idea man has a will. Why not. Was he wrong with that aspect of his view?


Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Which word am i misinterpreting here if a will is not implied. Does" he who" really mean God will force me to endure or just how do you interpret this if man has no will.

You are right, I do not understand Calvinism. but I also know that there are probably several hundred versions of it, so who has Calvinism right, let alone Scripture as once given to the Apostles.

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19805
Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:28 AM
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sojourner, apology accepted.
It is obvious that you do not understand Gods sovereignty. God does have a sovereign plan and has decreed everything that will come to pass. But that does not eliminate human responsibility, especially since that is clearly shown in scripture. I know that i am a sinner who deserves Gods wrath. God has graciously chosen to save me from sin, not because of anything God has seen in me but because it was his good pleasure. When God looks at me he sees me as righteous because Christ propitiated the wrath of God. I know this because i have my faith in Christ and live my life in gratitude. I agree that we need to make our calling and election sure and examine and test ourselves to make sure we are in the faith. A few ways of knowing... This is love for God: to obey his commands. Preserverence is a great way to prove our faith genuine, along with suffering and trials. Love your brothers. Live in godliness.
To merely know everything about God will not do, for even the demons believe and they shudder.

I do not believe God is the author of sin, like you have stated, in that he does not tempt anyone to sin and in him is no darkness. james 1:13; 1 john 1:5
But he DID create evil and darkness in the way that it is said in Isaiah 45:7.

You said "Even if I wanted to believe Total Depravity it would be an impossibility for me to chose"
It would not be impossible for you to choose to believe in total depravity for i choose to do things all of the time. Though it would be imposible for you to choose to put your trust in Christ since that is against your nature. But dont worry, God can fix that by making you a new creature. I would recommend getting down on your knees and pleading for mercy.

Another great book i would recomend very highly for you to read is aw pinks book called the sovereinty of God. If you are at all interested in what i believe or what the bible teaches about Gods sovereignty then it would do you good to read at least a few chapters in this book.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sovereignty.htm

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19806
Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:35 AM
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I would be interested in who taught this in the first generation past the disciples. If this were true, then their direct disciples would surely proclaim it as Truth. I might have missed it, but apparently you didn't.


Yes, the apostles taught this in scripture. It is your faulty interpretation that is the problem. I gave some quotes from early writers upholding calvinism. However, I see no reason to believe everything, doctrinally, was settled prior to 200a.d., by matter of council. Scripture was finished, and we had the truth. However, definitions of the trinity, formation of a canon, and various other matters were still being dealt with. Your assertion that since nobody put forth calvinistic beliefs makes it false is itself a false claim. The claim that doctrine had to be settled by a specific date is also out of sync with church history.

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So, first of all Christ had no will. I believe He is in Scripture, NO?


Yes, Christ is in scripture. Yes, Christ had a will, as well as a nature.


God bless,

william

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19807
Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:42 AM
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OK first off, you are totally misquoting and misunderstanding me when you say i think "that man is a robot just performing the whims of a God who yanks to and fro and has decreed every action you make from eternity"

I think you need to open up your bible and read the OT. See how God uses Nebuchadnezzar to discipline his people. Nebuchadnezzar is not a christian and yet in Jeremiah he is often called Gods servent. Look at Job and Josephs life along with everyone else in the old test. I bet you could name almost any book and i can show you Gods sovereignty. Read the bible and watch the whole plan of redemption unfold...all part of Gods plan.

And when did we ever say man did not have a will?

Please read our posts carefully. I agree with averagefellar when he says that you obviously do not understand calvinism.

Last edited by Soli Deo Gloria; Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:47 AM.
Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19808
Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:46 AM
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sojourner said:
averagefellar,

The clear implication that man choses, man desires, man abides, man does many things.


We are not arguing that.

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19809
Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:06 AM
Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:06 AM

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averagefellow,

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I believe in the incarnation. I am a Christian.

I never stated anywhere that Christ did not have a will. Nor have I ever stated, anywhere, that man does not have a will. Man has a will. It is affected by his sinful nature and is not free


Yes, but now explain your understanding of the Incarnation.
Scripturally, it means that Christ assumed man's human nature and redeemed it. Redeemed it from the fall. Man's will is redeemed and is no longer bonded to death and sin.
So therefore man is free to chose. If you still deny man's free will, then you also deny the scripural definition of the Incarnation.

Man's sinful nature still possessed a will and a free will, that is independent of God's will. It is true that this will was clouded but never lost. This is quite evident that man in pre-Christ period of history did respond to God as we know in the OT. We also know that all men have this will because they naturally seek God. In their falleness, they set up gods to their liking, but always something or someone considered greater than they..

Quote
I am definitely seeing a pattern of misrepresentation concerning what calvinism teaches. I think you might want to study up a bit so you can at least discuss the real thing.


That is your job to better explain your view in opposition to the one I was presenting. If you don't explain your view, I can only assume what you believe.
But then I was not discussing Calvinism but Christianity, the Scriptural one, not the man-made one.
I might also add, that if I did read up on Calvinism, I would still not have it correct for everyone. Everyone seems to have slightly different understandings of it. As I already stated, there are Calvinists, then 4pt, 3pt etc. When there are over 40,000 different variations of protestantism one would have a very difficult time keeping up with all the nuances.

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19810
Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:20 AM
Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:20 AM

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Man's will is redeemed and is no longer bonded to death and sin.
So therefore man is free to chose.


So man can choose not to die? Jesus spoke about mans ability.......

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Mat 19:25-26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(KJV)


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We also know that all men have this will because they naturally seek God.


Paul, the apostle says otherwise.......

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Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (KJV)


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When there are over 40,000 different variations of protestantism one would have a very difficult time keeping up with all the nuances.


Another false claim. I hope you actually offer some evidence for this claim. I'll offer some against it.......Roman delusions. I really think you should look into these things before you misrepresent them.


God bless,

william

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19811
Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:52 AM
Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:52 AM

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Soli Deo gloria,

I fully understand God's sovereignty but not your understanding of it. the following is a contradiction.

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God does have a sovereign plan and has decreed everything that will come to pass. But that does not eliminate human responsibility, especially since that is clearly shown in scripture.
Yes, but how do you get around this contradiction. That man is responsible for acts that are deceed by God.
Simply, it is not in scripture. Prayer would be totally useless. God only acts through established created laws or decrees thus He could not possibly change or act directly with His creation which the Bible clearly teaches. Miracles are an impossibility as these are direct acts of God within His creation. This is a form of Deism, God is transcendent only.

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Though it would be imposible for you to choose to put your trust in Christ since that is against your nature.
So my nature has a will which works great until I want to chose God. I can chose to do moral good and moral evil but I cannot chose God. Explain please scripturally., You also need to explain your understanding of the Incarnation as well.

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But dont worry, God can fix that by making you a new creature. I would recommend getting down on your knees and pleading for mercy.
And just how does this align with the above. That is a free choice you just gave to me. On the other hand, I guess he does not need to answer if I am not the elect. But God also said that whosoever seeks Him He will in no way cast out. so you have another contradiction to deal with. Did God decree or did he not. He also did not really desire all men to be saved. Nor does He call all men to repentance, just some He leads, not all.

You have so many contradictions that just do not align with scripture let alone within your own understanding.

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