Donations for the month of March


We have received a total of "0" in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Forum Search
Member Spotlight
John_C
John_C
Mississippi Gulf Coast
Posts: 1,865
Joined: September 2001
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics7,780
Posts54,875
Members974
Most Online732
Jan 15th, 2023
Top Posters
Pilgrim 14,447
Tom 4,516
chestnutmare 3,320
J_Edwards 2,615
John_C 1,864
Wes 1,856
RJ_ 1,583
MarieP 1,579
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 4
John_C 1
Recent Posts
Is the church in crisis
by John_C - Wed Mar 27, 2024 10:52 AM
Jordan Peterson ordered to take sensitivity training
by Tom - Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:00 PM
Should Creeds be read in Church?
by Pilgrim - Mon Mar 25, 2024 6:30 AM
1 Cor. 6:9-11
by Tom - Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:34 AM
Do Christians have Dual Personalities: Peace & Wretchedness?
by DiscipleEddie - Sat Mar 23, 2024 1:15 PM
The When and How of Justification
by DiscipleEddie - Sat Mar 23, 2024 1:13 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 5 of 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 11 12
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Quote
CovenantInBlood said:
Quote
speratus said:

I agree that Paul's argument is not merely hypothetical; however, Paul does not say God made any vessels of dishonor.

"Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:21).
Looks to me like Paul is saying that God makes another vessel for dishonor.

I have never seen that verse translated "vessel of honor" and "vessel of dishonor." There is no indication in that verse, taken in isolation, how the vessel made by God becomes honorable or dishonorable.

Quote
CovenantInBlood opinesI don't disagree that Adam sinned and, as a result, all men are condemned. Yet this condemnation was imposed by God Himself. It's not as though the condemnation is some bare natural consequence.

Who caused Adam's fall? If the devil and Adam and not God, how is that reprobation?

Quote
CovenantInBlood opinesI don't disagree
What do you make of God hardening Pharaoh's heart? For this God most certainly did, and not unjustly since Pharaoh was a sinner deserving only condemnation.

Luther explains how this "hardening" of Pharoah does not create fresh evil:

Quote
Bondage of the Will
LET no one think, therefore, that God, where He is said to harden, or to work evil in us (for to harden is to do evil), so does the evil as though He created evil in us anew, in the same way as a malignant liquor-seller, being himself bad, would pour poison into, or mix it up in, a vessel that was not bad, where the vessel itself did nothing but receive, or passively accomplish the purpose of the malignity of the poison-mixer. For when people hear it said by us, that God works in us both good and evil, and that we from mere necessity passively submit to the working of God, they seem to imagine, that a man who is good, or not evil himself, is passive while God works evil in him: not rightly considering that God, is far from being inactive in all His creatures, and never suffers any one of them to keep holiday.
But whoever wishes to understand these things let him think thus:—that God works evil in us, that is, by us, not from the fault of God, but from the fault of evil in us:—that is, as we are evil by nature, God, who is truly good, carrying us along by His own action, according to the nature of His Omnipotence, cannot do otherwise than do evil by us, as instruments, though He Himself be good; though by His wisdom, He overrules that evil well, to His own glory and to our salvation.
Thus God, finding the will of Satan evil, not creating it so, but leaving it while Satan sinningly commits the evil, carries it along by His working, and moves it which way He will; though that will ceases not to be evil by this motion of God.

Quote
CovenantInBlood queries
Do fallen men have any will to do evil?

Their will is in bondage to sin. There is no free will to do evil.

Last edited by speratus; Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:19 PM.
Joe k #29641 Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:43 PM
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Quote
Joe k said:
Quote
speratus said:

I agree that Paul's argument is not merely hypothetical; however, Paul does not say God made any vessels of dishonor. Adam, at the instigation of the devil, made himself and all his seed vessels of dishonor. In the preceding verses, Paul says nothing about God creating fresh evil in Ishmael, Esau, or Pharaoh. In the following verses, Paul speaks about God making vessels of honor not vessels of dishonor.

Speratus, are we reading the same verse? It is the whole of Romans 9. Not one verse in isolation. You are confused about what reprobation actually means, and it is common. One thing it does not mean is that God makes people EVIL or Sinners. Just look at those elected, Moses was a muderer, Noah was a drunk, Abraham a polygamist, David an adulterer and murderer, etc etc etc. The irony is compare these people to those in MAtt 7 whom the Lord condemns as He never KNEW them. These people appeared "good". You must stop thinking that those who espouse an active, postitive action by God to reprobate, does not at all mean he created them with some extreme evil. But He does create them with their damnation in view. Hence their continued unbelief, continued disobedience, continued sin that is not redeemed by the blood of Christ. Plus I keep harping on this point, Reprobation is His Sovereignty, Condemnation is His justice. Just like Election is His Sovereignty and Salvation in His Mercy.

The whole of Romans 9 teaches justification by faith alone. Parts of Romans 9 teach election. Nothing in Romans 9 teaches reprobation being defined as God making a person a vessel of dishonor.

I agree that God created Adam knowing He would damn him and his seed. However, His purpose was the salvation of the elect.

#29642 Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,447
Likes: 57
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,447
Likes: 57
Quote
speratus said:
I have never seen that verse translated "vessel of honor" and "vessel of dishonor." There is no indication in that verse, taken in isolation, how the vessel made by God becomes honorable or dishonorable.
For your benefit, I'm including Romans 1:21 as it appears in the KJV with Strong's Greek (interlinear):

Quote
Romans 9:21 (KJVSL) <e> Hath <echo> not <ou> the potter <kerameus> power <exousia> over the clay <pelos>, of <ek> the same <autos> lump <phurama> to <hos> <men> make <poieo> one vessel <skeuos> unto <eis> honour <tima>, and <de> another <hos> unto <eis> dishonour <atimia>?
You will notice that the Greek word used by Paul for "honour" is "tima" (tee-may) and the word he uses for "dishonour" is "atimia" (at-ee-mee'-ah), which is of the same root as the one he uses for "honour". The vowel "a" in atimia in Greek signifies a negative quality, thus the translation "DIS[no]honour", is 100% correct. Notice also that the verb "make" [Grk: poieo, refers to BOTH honour and dishonour. Thus it is incontrovertible, that God "makes" of the same lump (mankind) some to honour and some to dishonour. And finally, since you readily admit that the reference to God making some to "honour" is to election, then of necessity, it must logically follow that those who are made unto "dishonour" refers to the reprobate. To deny the obvious meaning of this text requires that you commit linguistic and grammatical suicide.

Quote
Quote
CovenantInBlood queries
Do fallen men have any will to do evil?

Their will is in bondage to sin. There is no free will to do evil.
As might be expected, this is OFF TOPIC. And, this silly notion of yours has already been discussed and soundly refuted by both Scripture and sound reason. If fallen men are not free to sin, then of necessity the sin by a compulsion which is decidedly against their own will and thus they cannot be held accountable for whatever sins they commit.

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#29643 Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 251
Enthusiast
Offline
Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 251
Quote
speratus said:

The whole of Romans 9 teaches justification by faith alone. Parts of Romans 9 teach election. Nothing in Romans 9 teaches reprobation being defined as God making a person a vessel of dishonor.

There is no justification mentioned in Romans 9

I agree that God created Adam knowing He would damn him and his seed. However, His purpose was the salvation of the elect.

There is a purpose in all of what God does speratus. Look at verse 11 and 12.

11
before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God's elective plan might continue,
12
not by works but by his call--she was told, "The older shall serve the younger."
13
As it is written: "I loved Jacob but hated Esau."
Before they were even born.



Here is your answer, a verse that is overlooked:

22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?

MADE FOR DESTRUCTION. They were MADE for this purpose


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
#29644 Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969
Old Hand
Offline
Old Hand
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969
Quote
The Supra/Infralapsarian debates are simply rationalizing attempts to rescue a failed "double predestination" doctrine which only hyper-Calvinists can accept. The rest of the Calvinists refuse to take "double predestination" to its logical and unscriptural conclusion.

Well call the sheriff and slap your grandma because Luther taught double predestination also. Double Or Nothing: Martin Luther's Doctrine of Predestination

Boy that hyper-Calvinist Luther what in the world are we going to do with him. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
#29645 Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710
Addict
Offline
Addict
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710
<marquee direction="left">[color:"FF0000"]<font size="6">THE REJECTION OF DIVINE PREDESTINATION IS ARMINIAN AND NOT REFORMED</font>[/color]</marquee>

OF DIVINE PREDESTINATION
REJECTION OF ERRORS
PARAGRAPH VIII


Who teach: That God, simply by virtue of His righteous will, did not decide either to leave anyone in the fall of Adam and in the common state of sin and condemnation, or to pass anyone by in the communication of grace which is necessary for faith and conversion. For this is firmly decreed: "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth" (Rom. 9:18). And also this: "It is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given" Matt. 13:11. Likewise: "I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed goodin Thy sight" Matt. 11:25,26.

Pilgrim #29646 Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:18 PM
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Quote
Pilgrim said:
For your benefit, I'm including Romans 1:21 as it appears in the KJV with Strong's Greek (interlinear):

Quote
Romans 9:21 (KJVSL) <e> Hath <echo> not <ou> the potter <kerameus> power <exousia> over the clay <pelos>, of <ek> the same <autos> lump <phurama> to <hos> <men> make <poieo> one vessel <skeuos> unto <eis> honour <tima>, and <de> another <hos> unto <eis> dishonour <atimia>?
You will notice that the Greek word used by Paul for "honour" is "tima" (tee-may) and the word he uses for "dishonour" is "atimia" (at-ee-mee'-ah), which is of the same root as the one he uses for "honour". The vowel "a" in atimia in Greek signifies a negative quality, thus the translation "DIS[no]honour", is 100% correct. Notice also that the verb "make" [Grk: poieo, refers to BOTH honour and dishonour. Thus it is incontrovertible, that God "makes" of the same lump (mankind) some to honour and some to dishonour. And finally, since you readily admit that the reference to God making some to "honour" is to election, then of necessity, it must logically follow that those who are made unto "dishonour" refers to the reprobate. To deny the obvious meaning of this text requires that you commit linguistic and grammatical suicide.

Thanks for confirming the preposition is "to" not "of". In every post, I have denied that the verse refers to "election" or "reprobation".

#29647 Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,447
Likes: 57
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,447
Likes: 57
Quote
speratus said:
Thanks for confirming the preposition is "to" not "of". In every post, I have denied that the verse refers to "election" or "reprobation".
HUH? Another attempt to avoid the obvious? You can deny that the verse refers to election and/or reprobation all you like. But in doing so, you stand in opposition to the inspired Word of God for the entire chapter displays the indisputable sovereignty of God in the salvation and damnation of mankind. Personally, I don't see how the Holy Spirit could have written it any clearer when He wrote:

Quote
Romans 9:11 (ASV) for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,"
Once again, you have succeeded in amazing me that you claim to be a Lutheran but deny one of the very fundamental doctrines which Luther himself not only taught but personally reveled in and upon which he was assured of his own salvation. rolleyes2

The Bible clearly teaches: God's Indisputable Sovereignty.

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#29648 Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Persnickety Presbyterian
Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Quote
speratus said:
Quote
CovenantInBlood said:

"Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:21).
Looks to me like Paul is saying that God makes another vessel for dishonor.

I have never seen that verse translated "vessel of honor" and "vessel of dishonor." There is no indication in that verse, taken in isolation, how the vessel made by God becomes honorable or dishonorable.

Um, yes, there is every indication that God makes these vessels, some for honor and some for dishonor. There's no other way to read that text unless you import foreign ideas into it.

Quote
Quote
CovenantInBlood opinesI don't disagree that Adam sinned and, as a result, all men are condemned. Yet this condemnation was imposed by God Himself. It's not as though the condemnation is some bare natural consequence.

Who caused Adam's fall? If the devil and Adam and not God, how is that reprobation?

Huh? What I'm saying is that God imposed the penalty. So all men are condemned in Adam, not because of natural law, but because of God's justice.

Quote
Luther explains how this "hardening" of Pharoah does not create fresh evil

I agree with Luther. I've said nothing about "fresh evil." But the important thing to remember is that God doesn't harden hearts of good or neutral people, but only the hearts of evil people, who by their own will desire hardened hearts. So at once God is just in hardening them and they are accountable for their hardening.

Quote
Quote
CovenantInBlood queries
Do fallen men have any will to do evil?

Their will is in bondage to sin. There is no free will to do evil.

Right, they have a fallen will by which they choose to do evil, without God coercing or forcing them.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Joe k #29649 Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:48 AM
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Quote
Joe k said:

There is a purpose in all of what God does speratus. Look at verse 11 and 12.

11
before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God's elective plan might continue,
12
not by works but by his call--she was told, "The older shall serve the younger."
13
As it is written: "I loved Jacob but hated Esau."
Before they were even born.

At the time of Esau's conception, God hated Esau. Although he had not as yet committed any personal sins, the inherited wickedness of Adam was imputed to him. Where's the reprobation?

Quote
speratus said:
Here is your answer, a verse that is overlooked:

22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?

MADE FOR DESTRUCTION. They were MADE for this purpose

Every translation I've seen uses "fitted" or "prepared". What translation are you using?

#29650 Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:23 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,447
Likes: 57
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,447
Likes: 57
Quote
speratus said:
Every translation I've seen uses "fitted" or "prepared". What translation are you using?
So much to learn and so little time, especially for one like yourself who is unteachable:

Quote
katartizo kat-ar-tid'-zo

A derivative of 739 [artios ar'-tee-os; fresh, i.e. (by implication) complete:--perfect.]; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:--fit, frame, mend, <span style="background-color:yellow">(make)</span> perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.
Thus "make" is a legitimate interpretation for katartizo and which fits perfectly with the overall intent of the passage which refers back to God's having <span style="background-color:yellow">made</span> out of the same lump some "to dishonour" (v. 21) and here in v. 22 "to destruction". Regardless of which word you choose to use here, they all amount to the same thing, i.e., the purpose of God, His immutable will, was that there was a group of mankind which He has determined to save (elect) and some to condemn (reprobate).

Quote
2 Peter 3:15-16 (ASV) "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you; as also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Peter #29651 Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:35 AM
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Quote
Boanerges said:
Quote
The Supra/Infralapsarian debates are simply rationalizing attempts to rescue a failed "double predestination" doctrine which only hyper-Calvinists can accept. The rest of the Calvinists refuse to take "double predestination" to its logical and unscriptural conclusion.

Well call the sheriff and slap your grandma because Luther taught double predestination also. Double Or Nothing: Martin Luther's Doctrine of Predestination

Can you provide a citation from "Bondage of the Will" that proves Luther taught double predestination?

#29652 Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:13 AM
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Quote
speratus said:
Can you provide a citation from "Bondage of the Will" that proves Luther taught double predestination?
From The Bondage of the Will p. 176
It belongs to the same God Incarnate to weep, lament, and groan over the perdition of the ungodly, though that will of Majesty purposely leaves and reprobates some to perish.

Pilgrim #29653 Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:21 AM
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Quote
Pilgrim said:

Quote
katartizo kat-ar-tid'-zo

A derivative of 739 [artios ar'-tee-os; fresh, i.e. (by implication) complete:--perfect.]; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:--fit, frame, mend, <span style="background-color:yellow">(make)</span> perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

Thanks, for confirming Joe K's poor translation. The sense is to take something and make it suitable, in this case, to destruction.

#29654 Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,447
Likes: 57
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,447
Likes: 57
Quote
speratus said:
Thanks, for confirming Joe K's poor translation. The sense is to take something and make it suitable, in this case, to destruction.
You really need some professional help! rolleyes2 I was confirming Joe k's accuracy of translation! Methinks one of Luther's terse quotes is apropos here:

"No stone, nor steel, nor diamond is so hard as the impenitent heart of man."


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Page 5 of 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 11 12

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 77 guests, and 11 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
PaulWatkins, His Unworthy Son, Nahum, TheSojourner, Larry
974 Registered Users
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
1,506,390 Gospel truth