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Re: Double predestination [Re: CovenantInBlood] #29640
Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:03 PM
Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:03 PM

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CovenantInBlood said:
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speratus said:

I agree that Paul's argument is not merely hypothetical; however, Paul does not say God made any vessels of dishonor.


"Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:21).
Looks to me like Paul is saying that God makes another vessel for dishonor.



I have never seen that verse translated "vessel of honor" and "vessel of dishonor." There is no indication in that verse, taken in isolation, how the vessel made by God becomes honorable or dishonorable.

Quote
CovenantInBlood opinesI don't disagree that Adam sinned and, as a result, all men are condemned. Yet this condemnation was imposed by God Himself. It's not as though the condemnation is some bare natural consequence.


Who caused Adam's fall? If the devil and Adam and not God, how is that reprobation?

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CovenantInBlood opinesI don't disagree
What do you make of God hardening Pharaoh's heart? For this God most certainly did, and not unjustly since Pharaoh was a sinner deserving only condemnation.


Luther explains how this "hardening" of Pharoah does not create fresh evil:

Quote
Bondage of the Will
LET no one think, therefore, that God, where He is said to harden, or to work evil in us (for to harden is to do evil), so does the evil as though He created evil in us anew, in the same way as a malignant liquor-seller, being himself bad, would pour poison into, or mix it up in, a vessel that was not bad, where the vessel itself did nothing but receive, or passively accomplish the purpose of the malignity of the poison-mixer. For when people hear it said by us, that God works in us both good and evil, and that we from mere necessity passively submit to the working of God, they seem to imagine, that a man who is good, or not evil himself, is passive while God works evil in him: not rightly considering that God, is far from being inactive in all His creatures, and never suffers any one of them to keep holiday.
But whoever wishes to understand these things let him think thus:—that God works evil in us, that is, by us, not from the fault of God, but from the fault of evil in us:—that is, as we are evil by nature, God, who is truly good, carrying us along by His own action, according to the nature of His Omnipotence, cannot do otherwise than do evil by us, as instruments, though He Himself be good; though by His wisdom, He overrules that evil well, to His own glory and to our salvation.
Thus God, finding the will of Satan evil, not creating it so, but leaving it while Satan sinningly commits the evil, carries it along by His working, and moves it which way He will; though that will ceases not to be evil by this motion of God.


Quote
CovenantInBlood queries
Do fallen men have any will to do evil?


Their will is in bondage to sin. There is no free will to do evil.

Last edited by speratus; Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:19 PM.
Re: Double predestination [Re: Joe k] #29641
Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:43 PM
Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:43 PM

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Joe k said:
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speratus said:

I agree that Paul's argument is not merely hypothetical; however, Paul does not say God made any vessels of dishonor. Adam, at the instigation of the devil, made himself and all his seed vessels of dishonor. In the preceding verses, Paul says nothing about God creating fresh evil in Ishmael, Esau, or Pharaoh. In the following verses, Paul speaks about God making vessels of honor not vessels of dishonor.


Speratus, are we reading the same verse? It is the whole of Romans 9. Not one verse in isolation. You are confused about what reprobation actually means, and it is common. One thing it does not mean is that God makes people EVIL or Sinners. Just look at those elected, Moses was a muderer, Noah was a drunk, Abraham a polygamist, David an adulterer and murderer, etc etc etc. The irony is compare these people to those in MAtt 7 whom the Lord condemns as He never KNEW them. These people appeared "good". You must stop thinking that those who espouse an active, postitive action by God to reprobate, does not at all mean he created them with some extreme evil. But He does create them with their damnation in view. Hence their continued unbelief, continued disobedience, continued sin that is not redeemed by the blood of Christ. Plus I keep harping on this point, Reprobation is His Sovereignty, Condemnation is His justice. Just like Election is His Sovereignty and Salvation in His Mercy.


The whole of Romans 9 teaches justification by faith alone. Parts of Romans 9 teach election. Nothing in Romans 9 teaches reprobation being defined as God making a person a vessel of dishonor.

I agree that God created Adam knowing He would damn him and his seed. However, His purpose was the salvation of the elect.

Re: Double predestination #29642
Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:00 PM
Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:00 PM
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speratus said:
I have never seen that verse translated "vessel of honor" and "vessel of dishonor." There is no indication in that verse, taken in isolation, how the vessel made by God becomes honorable or dishonorable.

For your benefit, I'm including Romans 1:21 as it appears in the KJV with Strong's Greek (interlinear):

Quote
Romans 9:21 (KJVSL) <e> Hath <echo> not <ou> the potter <kerameus> power <exousia> over the clay <pelos>, of <ek> the same <autos> lump <phurama> to <hos> <men> make <poieo> one vessel <skeuos> unto <eis> honour <tima>, and <de> another <hos> unto <eis> dishonour <atimia>?

You will notice that the Greek word used by Paul for "honour" is "tima" (tee-may) and the word he uses for "dishonour" is "atimia" (at-ee-mee'-ah), which is of the same root as the one he uses for "honour". The vowel "a" in atimia in Greek signifies a negative quality, thus the translation "DIS[no]honour", is 100% correct. Notice also that the verb "make" [Grk: poieo, refers to BOTH honour and dishonour. Thus it is incontrovertible, that God "makes" of the same lump (mankind) some to honour and some to dishonour. And finally, since you readily admit that the reference to God making some to "honour" is to election, then of necessity, it must logically follow that those who are made unto "dishonour" refers to the reprobate. To deny the obvious meaning of this text requires that you commit linguistic and grammatical suicide.

Quote
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CovenantInBlood queries
Do fallen men have any will to do evil?


Their will is in bondage to sin. There is no free will to do evil.

As might be expected, this is OFF TOPIC. And, this silly notion of yours has already been discussed and soundly refuted by both Scripture and sound reason. If fallen men are not free to sin, then of necessity the sin by a compulsion which is decidedly against their own will and thus they cannot be held accountable for whatever sins they commit.

In His grace,


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Re: Double predestination #29643
Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:11 PM
Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:11 PM
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speratus said:

The whole of Romans 9 teaches justification by faith alone. Parts of Romans 9 teach election. Nothing in Romans 9 teaches reprobation being defined as God making a person a vessel of dishonor.

There is no justification mentioned in Romans 9

I agree that God created Adam knowing He would damn him and his seed. However, His purpose was the salvation of the elect.


There is a purpose in all of what God does speratus. Look at verse 11 and 12.

11
before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God's elective plan might continue,
12
not by works but by his call--she was told, "The older shall serve the younger."
13
As it is written: "I loved Jacob but hated Esau."
Before they were even born.



Here is your answer, a verse that is overlooked:

22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?

MADE FOR DESTRUCTION. They were MADE for this purpose


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
Re: Double predestination #29644
Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:34 PM
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The Supra/Infralapsarian debates are simply rationalizing attempts to rescue a failed "double predestination" doctrine which only hyper-Calvinists can accept. The rest of the Calvinists refuse to take "double predestination" to its logical and unscriptural conclusion.


Well call the sheriff and slap your grandma because Luther taught double predestination also. Double Or Nothing: Martin Luther's Doctrine of Predestination

Boy that hyper-Calvinist Luther what in the world are we going to do with him. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Re: Double predestination #29645
Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:14 PM
Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:14 PM
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<marquee direction="left">[color:"FF0000"]<font size="6">THE REJECTION OF DIVINE PREDESTINATION IS ARMINIAN AND NOT REFORMED</font>[/color]</marquee>

OF DIVINE PREDESTINATION
REJECTION OF ERRORS
PARAGRAPH VIII


Who teach: That God, simply by virtue of His righteous will, did not decide either to leave anyone in the fall of Adam and in the common state of sin and condemnation, or to pass anyone by in the communication of grace which is necessary for faith and conversion. For this is firmly decreed: "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth" (Rom. 9:18). And also this: "It is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given" Matt. 13:11. Likewise: "I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed goodin Thy sight" Matt. 11:25,26.

Re: Double predestination [Re: Pilgrim] #29646
Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:18 PM
Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:18 PM

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Pilgrim said:
For your benefit, I'm including Romans 1:21 as it appears in the KJV with Strong's Greek (interlinear):

Quote
Romans 9:21 (KJVSL) <e> Hath <echo> not <ou> the potter <kerameus> power <exousia> over the clay <pelos>, of <ek> the same <autos> lump <phurama> to <hos> <men> make <poieo> one vessel <skeuos> unto <eis> honour <tima>, and <de> another <hos> unto <eis> dishonour <atimia>?

You will notice that the Greek word used by Paul for "honour" is "tima" (tee-may) and the word he uses for "dishonour" is "atimia" (at-ee-mee'-ah), which is of the same root as the one he uses for "honour". The vowel "a" in atimia in Greek signifies a negative quality, thus the translation "DIS[no]honour", is 100% correct. Notice also that the verb "make" [Grk: poieo, refers to BOTH honour and dishonour. Thus it is incontrovertible, that God "makes" of the same lump (mankind) some to honour and some to dishonour. And finally, since you readily admit that the reference to God making some to "honour" is to election, then of necessity, it must logically follow that those who are made unto "dishonour" refers to the reprobate. To deny the obvious meaning of this text requires that you commit linguistic and grammatical suicide.


Thanks for confirming the preposition is "to" not "of". In every post, I have denied that the verse refers to "election" or "reprobation".

Re: Double predestination #29647
Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:50 PM
Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:50 PM
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speratus said:
Thanks for confirming the preposition is "to" not "of". In every post, I have denied that the verse refers to "election" or "reprobation".

HUH? Another attempt to avoid the obvious? You can deny that the verse refers to election and/or reprobation all you like. But in doing so, you stand in opposition to the inspired Word of God for the entire chapter displays the indisputable sovereignty of God in the salvation and damnation of mankind. Personally, I don't see how the Holy Spirit could have written it any clearer when He wrote:

Quote
Romans 9:11 (ASV) for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,"

Once again, you have succeeded in amazing me that you claim to be a Lutheran but deny one of the very fundamental doctrines which Luther himself not only taught but personally reveled in and upon which he was assured of his own salvation. rolleyes2

The Bible clearly teaches: God's Indisputable Sovereignty.

In His grace,


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Re: Double predestination #29648
Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:04 PM
Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:04 PM
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Quote
speratus said:
Quote
CovenantInBlood said:

"Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:21).
Looks to me like Paul is saying that God makes another vessel for dishonor.


I have never seen that verse translated "vessel of honor" and "vessel of dishonor." There is no indication in that verse, taken in isolation, how the vessel made by God becomes honorable or dishonorable.


Um, yes, there is every indication that God makes these vessels, some for honor and some for dishonor. There's no other way to read that text unless you import foreign ideas into it.

Quote
Quote
CovenantInBlood opinesI don't disagree that Adam sinned and, as a result, all men are condemned. Yet this condemnation was imposed by God Himself. It's not as though the condemnation is some bare natural consequence.


Who caused Adam's fall? If the devil and Adam and not God, how is that reprobation?


Huh? What I'm saying is that God imposed the penalty. So all men are condemned in Adam, not because of natural law, but because of God's justice.

Quote
Luther explains how this "hardening" of Pharoah does not create fresh evil


I agree with Luther. I've said nothing about "fresh evil." But the important thing to remember is that God doesn't harden hearts of good or neutral people, but only the hearts of evil people, who by their own will desire hardened hearts. So at once God is just in hardening them and they are accountable for their hardening.

Quote
Quote
CovenantInBlood queries
Do fallen men have any will to do evil?


Their will is in bondage to sin. There is no free will to do evil.


Right, they have a fallen will by which they choose to do evil, without God coercing or forcing them.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Double predestination [Re: Joe k] #29649
Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:48 PM
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Joe k said:

There is a purpose in all of what God does speratus. Look at verse 11 and 12.

11
before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God's elective plan might continue,
12
not by works but by his call--she was told, "The older shall serve the younger."
13
As it is written: "I loved Jacob but hated Esau."
Before they were even born.


At the time of Esau's conception, God hated Esau. Although he had not as yet committed any personal sins, the inherited wickedness of Adam was imputed to him. Where's the reprobation?

Quote
speratus said:
Here is your answer, a verse that is overlooked:

22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?

MADE FOR DESTRUCTION. They were MADE for this purpose


Every translation I've seen uses "fitted" or "prepared". What translation are you using?

Re: Double predestination #29650
Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:23 AM
Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:23 AM
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speratus said:
Every translation I've seen uses "fitted" or "prepared". What translation are you using?

So much to learn and so little time, especially for one like yourself who is unteachable:

Quote
katartizo kat-ar-tid'-zo

A derivative of 739 [artios ar'-tee-os; fresh, i.e. (by implication) complete:--perfect.]; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:--fit, frame, mend, <span style="background-color:yellow">(make)</span> perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

Thus "make" is a legitimate interpretation for katartizo and which fits perfectly with the overall intent of the passage which refers back to God's having <span style="background-color:yellow">made</span> out of the same lump some "to dishonour" (v. 21) and here in v. 22 "to destruction". Regardless of which word you choose to use here, they all amount to the same thing, i.e., the purpose of God, His immutable will, was that there was a group of mankind which He has determined to save (elect) and some to condemn (reprobate).

Quote
2 Peter 3:15-16 (ASV) "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you; as also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

In His grace,


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Re: Double predestination [Re: Peter] #29651
Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:35 AM
Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:35 AM

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Boanerges said:
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The Supra/Infralapsarian debates are simply rationalizing attempts to rescue a failed "double predestination" doctrine which only hyper-Calvinists can accept. The rest of the Calvinists refuse to take "double predestination" to its logical and unscriptural conclusion.


Well call the sheriff and slap your grandma because Luther taught double predestination also. Double Or Nothing: Martin Luther's Doctrine of Predestination


Can you provide a citation from "Bondage of the Will" that proves Luther taught double predestination?

Re: Double predestination #29652
Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:13 AM
Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:13 AM

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speratus said:
Can you provide a citation from "Bondage of the Will" that proves Luther taught double predestination?

From The Bondage of the Will p. 176
It belongs to the same God Incarnate to weep, lament, and groan over the perdition of the ungodly, though that will of Majesty purposely leaves and reprobates some to perish.

Re: Double predestination [Re: Pilgrim] #29653
Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:21 AM
Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:21 AM

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Pilgrim said:

Quote
katartizo kat-ar-tid'-zo

A derivative of 739 [artios ar'-tee-os; fresh, i.e. (by implication) complete:--perfect.]; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:--fit, frame, mend, <span style="background-color:yellow">(make)</span> perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.



Thanks, for confirming Joe K's poor translation. The sense is to take something and make it suitable, in this case, to destruction.

Re: Double predestination #29654
Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:30 AM
Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:30 AM
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speratus said:
Thanks, for confirming Joe K's poor translation. The sense is to take something and make it suitable, in this case, to destruction.

You really need some professional help! rolleyes2 I was confirming Joe k's accuracy of translation! Methinks one of Luther's terse quotes is apropos here:

"No stone, nor steel, nor diamond is so hard as the impenitent heart of man."


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