The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Should be obviously wrong, right?

From the page http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html


First, Please re-read this last sentence and really think about the implicit meaning.


If God chooses certain people to save, he chooses certain people to burn in Hell forever.

Why would a loving God create an entire planet full of beautiful, humans only to condemn the majority, forcing them to spend eternity at the wicked hand of Satan?

I'm really struggling to understand how anyone could believe this. If anyone has any insight, or believes in calvinism themselves, would you mind explaining this belief to me? As hard as I'm coming down on this, I feel the conclusions I have drawn are not only implicitly stated by the quote from the main page, but are also obviously arrived at when considering calvinistic views.

Thanks in advance,
Lost

Not a Calvinist myself, but I think they'd say (if they reply) that God doesn't necessarily choose people to burn, but rather chooses people to save. The ones he doesn't choose to save, He leaves to their own reward (so to speak.)

For them, it would be as if the entirety of humanity decided to jump into the middle of the ocean with no life preserver, certain to drown if no help arrives. It is their own fault for jumping in, and they have no one to blame but themselves. God, however is the life preserver (actually more like a net that plucks them out of the water) arriving to save some, but not all, from the calamity they brought upon themselves. Those not chosen cannot blame God because it is their own fault and He is not obligated to save/choose them. The ones who are saved see the glory and power of a God who could have left them, but instead graciously chose to save them all by Himself.

Now, you may think "choosing to burn" versus "choosing not to save" is a distinction without a difference and mere semantics, and I completely get that....I'm just giving you the way it has been explained to me before.

Perhaps I can answer your question and at the same time interweave Newman's response as well.

1. God, being the Omnipotent God, decrees/foreordains ALL THINGS according to His most perfect eternal counsel and for His glory, including the predestination and election of those who He determined to save and the damnation of those who He determined to pass by. (Ps 33:11; 135:6; Isa 14:24,27; 43:13; 46:9,10; 55:11; Jer 327-19; Dan 4:35; Rom 8:29,30; 9:6-24; 11:33-36; Eph 1:4-13; 2Thess 2:13)

2. Therefore God ordains both election and reprobation, but NOT in the same manner. For the elect who God has predestinated unto salvation, He must work in them through the Holy Spirit to create a new nature (regeneration) and the faith necessary to embrace Christ. However, in regard to the reprobate, they are by nature already under God's judgment due to the Fall. ALL are born with Adam's guilt imputed to them and inheriting a corrupt (dead) nature; aka: Original Sin. God does not work in them so as to force them to sin and then damn them. For an excellent explanation of the historic Calvinist view, see here: Double Predestination.

3. Re: Newman's illustration, unfortunately it doesn't represent the reality of the situation. It isn't that the human race has jumped into the ocean and without a life preserver they would all surely drown. To go with the scenario, the biblical teaching is that the entire human race has already drowned and is lying on the bottom of the ocean DEAD. There is no "life preserver" in existence that could possibly save them. They are stone dead. But God, Who is rich in mercy and grace resurrects some to life (regeneration) and leaves the rest.

4. I strongly suspect that the real problem is not with the doctrine of divine predestination but rather with the doctrine of the Fall and its consequences; Total Depravity.

5. Question: If God hasn't predestinated some to salvation in Christ, then how is anyone saved?

My illustration (of drowning) was a slight modification of an illustration used by a staunch Reformed guy to explain such things to me. If you prefer to weave total depravity into the illustration, that's certainly fine, and it doesn't seem to me to alter the main point. Again, its another distinction without a difference, as far as I can tell. Whether at the bottom of the ocean, drowned and dead, or at the top, certain to drown and die, it remains that God chooses to save some from eternal torment and chooses not to save some from eternal torment. With the former, He chooses not to resurrect some to life (and therefore from eternal torment.) With the latter He chooses not to save some persons from drowning (and therefore from eternal torment.)

In either case, God chooses some for eternal torment, though Calvinists (at least in my experience) prefer to use phrases like "God passes by" or "God leaves" instead of "God chooses," and understandably so.

Unfortunately, this "staunch Reformed guy" has adopted an Arminian illustration which Billy Graham often uses. Again, the illustration is inconsistent with the doctrines of the Reformed Faith (Calvinism).

It isn't that I prefer to weave total depravity into the illustration but rather I prefer to be faithful to Scripture on such critical doctrines. God's predestination and election to salvation in Christ was of "sinners" (Infralapsarian), e.g.,

Ephesians 1:3-5 (ASV) "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,..."

Note that God's choosing was IN CHRIST with the intent that those whom God chose should be holy and without blemish. The elect were not 'innocent', without sin, but were already sinners in the eternal decree to save them IN CHRIST.

The application or the bringing to pass of their election in time once again necessitates their regeneration for the very reason that they are spiritually "dead":

Ephesians 2:1-5 (ASV) "And you [did he make alive,] when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:-- but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved)," (cf. Rom 5:12-18)

Yes, it is very common for Calvinists to use the phrase "pass by" rather than speaking of God preordaining/decreeing that the majority of mankind should be damned. Much confusion can and does result from the latter. However, the fact remains that the reprobation of the non-elect is no less decreed; a specific determination of God that certain individuals should not be saved but rather they should receive the just judgment they deserve.

On the matter of Reprobation, you might benefit from consulting the following:

- Reprobation
- Reprobation Asserted
- Objections Against the Absolute Decree of Predestination Answered

Well, this guy (a friend and super guy) doesn't have an ounce of Arminian in him. He's a 5 point Dutch Reformed, and completely agrees with total depravity. I think he used that illustration because for that conversation, as for this one, the topic wasn't depravity. It was beside the point.


Right. This seems like another way of saying what the op said, and what the poster was struggling with: "If God chooses certain people to save, he chooses certain people to burn in Hell forever"

1. Sorry, but I'm going to have to be hard-nosed about this... the illustration is antithetical to Calvinism.
2. Total Depravity is inextricably connected to predestination. The ONLY way anyone could possibly be saved is if God has predestinated and elected them in Christ because they are born totally depraved and are by nature guilty before God. To put it in reverse, because every human being since the Fall is under the just judgment of God and desires to do nothing but sin due to their inherited depravity, if there is no unconditional election by God, no one could possibly be saved.

Yes, I admit it probably seems to be the same but I have little doubt that what the OP understands by God choosing certain people to burn in Hell forever, is not what historic Calvinism teaches. That is why I linked to the article: Double Predestination because the author deals with the common misconception of the doctrine and sets forth the historic, confessional doctrine of the Reformed Faith/Calvinism.

Newman,

I realize that I'm taking this thread and I apologize to the OP.

I wanted to make a further comment on your statement above in regard to your "friend and super guy' who you state is "Dutch Reformed". It would probably be prudent on my part to first ask what Dutch Reformed denomination your friend is associated with. But, I'll dispense with prudence and go out on a limb here and presume that he is a member of perhaps the CRC (Christian Reformed Church). But, even if he isn't what I'm about to say is still relevant. The majority of Dutch Reformed denominations/churches have long since abandoned their roots, either confessionally or practically. For example, the CRC cut their moorings significantly in the mid '70s, particularly when Synod passed "Report 44", which had to do with the nature, inspiration and authority of Scripture. Most of the CRC now espouses semi-Pelagianism at best and some have embraced Neo-Orthodoxy. So, it shouldn't come as any surprise that your friend offered that illustration to which I take a strong objection.

The modern Protestant "church" is in a sad state of affairs. The situation hasn't been this grim since the 1800s when all manner of heresy took over the Church, e.g., Dispensationalism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, Christian Science, Finneyism, classic Liberalism and a host of other abberations. Modernism has all but taken over in recent years and the fundamental doctrines of the faith which the official Confessions set forth have been practically abandoned. Biblical worship has been cast aside for a man-made idolatry. And biblical illiteracy flourishes. The RCC has not been negatively effected either. I remember back in the 70s, Thomas Aquinas College in Grand Rapids, MI was teaching Barthianism; Hans Küng was lauded as one of the greatest theologians to come along since Thomas Aquinas. The Charismatic movement made significant inroads into the RCC as well during this time.

Let me finish by pointing out that there are few today who still adhere to confessional Calvinism either doctrinally and/or practice. By God's grace, The Highway has been spared from departing from the "faith once delivered unto the saints". Yet, over the past few years a noticeable apathy has crept in here to among the members. Very few are either willing or able to articulate or defend the faith. I am sure there are myriad reasons for this apathy, but it still exists nonetheless. Despite the fact that what The Highway stands for is among a very, very small minority of Internet sites whose purpose is to maintain traditional, historic Calvinism, there is less than a handful who are interested in supporting it to keep it online as a witness, despite the fact that the website and this board get over 1,000,000 hits per month. Consequently, The Highway is dying a slow but certain death and will eventually have to be abandoned. But despite the abysmal situation the Church is in I can take great comfort in knowing that Christ is the Head of His Church and thus it shall never perish, though it's size be ever so small.

Okay....

Interesting thread....

Just a thought, I think the reason TD is such a difficult truth is because we are still created in the image of God and retain a sense of morality, conscience, etc. So from a human perspective, we are not 'all bad.' Certainly we don't 'desereve' eternal damnation.

But in a spiritual sense we are as dead as a door nail. I agree with Pilgrim, that the churches are in bad shape. I believe another Awakening is in order.

In my own personal experience, I have had many moments when I am met with the crushing reality that I am living for myself and my own glory. It is in those moments that my coldness and hardness melts and I cry unto the Lord that He will continue to mold me and humble me that I may live to His glory, honor and praise. I believe God's elect do experience, some more intense, some more extended, what it is to be sinner's in the hands of an angry God in this life. The elect feel what it is to be spiritually detached and hell-worthy creatures (when we are regenerated and whenever we sin). But they also experience the burning desire to serve, honor and glory in Him which is the ultimate state of being that cannot be lost.....

The unregenerate are dead to any of these spiritual realities.



But the elect do not struggle with the 5-points, they believe God is just and would be just to leave us over to ourselves. The non-elect do not give thought to these matters or are offended and reject them as un'reason'able.

God is a GOd of love and mercy. But God is Holy and we should and will tremble before Him. God is so Holy that the only way we can even approach Him is through His Son who gave Himself up that the elect be reconciled and comforted.

To recommend another great work by RC Sproul, check out the 'Holiness of God' which will serve as a reminder to the fact that God's mighty ways are incomprehensible.

AC

I can't answer your questions becasue I don't see the matter the way you do. But I do have some sincere questions of my own.

Why did God allow the Fall of Man?
Why did Jesus, who is God, have to suffer death and humiliation in order for the Redemption of Man?
What will the Second Coming be? (and all the related consequences)

We have an idea of how to answer some of these questions but for the most part we have a very small perspective. God's ways are incomprehnsible.

How about some short and pithy answers?

Why did God allow the Fall of Man?
Ans. For His own glory!

Why did Jesus, who is God, have to suffer death and humiliation in order for the Redemption of Man?
Ans. For the praise of the glory of His grace!

What will the Second Coming be? (and all the related consequences)
Ans. Glorious!

I'm really sorry to hear that; I'll be praying that God will somehow allow this community to continue on.

There is a lot to say in your "Off Topic" comment Pilgrim in regards to the wide spread apostasy that exists today.

But that of course is off the topic of the OP. So I will start another thread that relates to this.

Dave

That is sad...

I've been to PuritanBoard, which I didn't like at all (aside from one young lady I met on there) and that place is, for lack of a better word, booming....

maybe some recruiting can be done? I'm not sure how that board is sustained, I didn't notice if it relied on donations. I looked up the guy that runs the show over there....I believe he has his own business and runs Puritan's Mind blog.


I had one of my overzealous meltdowns over there and got banned. Actually, I asked to be banned, I was so frustrated. I really don't like the vibes over there at all, maybe its just me.

I think you're looking at the world with rose-colored glasses. I don't see a planet full of 'beautiful humans'

I see a world of humans in rebellion against God, to different degrees from person to person throughout the history of the world. Those who truly want to be with God will be granted entrance.

Speaking directly to God's sovereignty, I don't have a problem with the fact that God turns some unto Him and leaves others in their fallen state. That is His prerogative, He is the Creator. His ways are beyond our comprehension.

I wonder why people who hold to a spiritual free-will of man don't feel that a 'loving God' should break the free-will of those whom choose eternal damnation and spare them that fate. Why does free-will trump all else? and where is the scriptural support for that? It is not surprising that election is offensive when we take into consideration that we are selfish creatures living in an entitlement-oriented society where there is no room for the mercy and grace of God to do the impossible....