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Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:54 AM
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Of all the doctrines of biblical Christianity, aka: historic Calvinism do you think is most hated? And, what is your reason for your choice? 
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I feel that the most problems I have come in contact with regarding the doctrines of grace, a.k.a. Calvinism, has to be their rejection of particular redemption, or limited atonement,.. whichever way we pronounce it is offensive to their understanding of Christ mission to save.
"A man may be theologically knowing and spiritually ignorant." STEPHEN CHARNOCK
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I would say the Sovereignty of God. We, as sinners, want to put ourselves on the throne. And, being submerged with the idea of democracy, having a Sovereign God runs counter to all our concepts that we have been ingrained with outside of church.
Another one would be God's Justice.
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
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John
I like your answer of the sovereignty of God, I actually was thinking of election. Then I remember my embracing the doctrines of grace, in particular where it comes to Romans chapter 9. Why I mention this is because when was able to fully embrace the doctrine of election, it was because Romans 9 made me realize I was looking at the matter through my own selfish eyes, rather than my sovereign Lord's eyes. In other words ultimately my problem was God's sovereignty, even though I didn't realize it at the time.
Tom
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ExCharisma
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Total Depravity in my opinion. It is the root of all the bitterness people have about the doctrine of election. People don't want to be told that they are by nature helpless, weak, spiritually dead, and desperately wicked.
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Hell, Judgement, Eternity..... Most folks who hate these are pretty Universalist if you press em..... Most atheists find eternal salvation pretty unappealing as well..... I think most arminians who are pressed on these matters either ultimately lean Calvinism or outright heretical.... and eventually abandon their faith.... As well as Tozer fared in every other area, he turned his brain off when it came to the strongest meat.... But I believe he was exCalvinist and his rejection of tulip was a conscious head scratching choice
Last edited by AJ Castellitto; Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:34 PM.
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Robin In many cases I think you are correct about Total Depravity. Yet, over the years I have run into a lot of Reformed Christians whose experience is the same as mine. They had already embraced the doctrines of grace, but they did so because they believed Scripture overrode their feelings. Like me, Romans 9 cured that.
Tom
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The following was, and quite timely to this thread, I think, in our bulletin today: To say I don’t believe in Election is easy and dishonest. If any doctrine is in the Bible, it is to be believed, held and proclaimed regardless of results. Any meeting that any Bible teaching will kill has no right to go on, it ought to be killed. Any church that any Bible teaching will split ought to be split wide open. There are times when certain doctrines must be preached regardless of consequences. The Bible doctrine of election is the object of more hatred and the occasion of the ugliest spirit of resentment and of more sharp division than any other Scriptural doctrine. — A. D. Muse
Meta4
There is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. - C.H. Spurgeon
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I have to agree with Robin on this one, i.e., the most hated, despised, distorted and rejected doctrine of all of Calvinism is the doctrine of "Total Depravity". Did you ever notice that our beloved "T-U-L-I-P" is really a rearrangement of the original response/conclusion of the great Synod of Dordt, which we know as the "Canons of Dordt" (1618-19)? If you read the original order, which you can do here: The Canons of Dordt, the acrostic is actually "U-L-T-I-P". The "5 Points" are an integral whole, which is undeniably true. But if you diminish, distort or deny the doctrine of Total Depravity, then none of the other 4 Points is necessary. Now, I could spend the time to expound on this truth, but it would occupy far too much space for a forum post.  Soooo, I will simply refer your attention to what the late John Gerstner said back in 1978 at the PCRT conference in Wheaton, Illinois in his first address. The transcript can be found here: "TULIP". After the introduction of the five points, Dr. Gerstner begins his exposition of the individual points beginning with "T"; Total Depravity. The entire lecture was emblazoned in my mind, heart and soul and I can still hear the sound of the "growling professor" in the recesses of my mind. But this first section on Total Depravity, in my estimation was the best. Do read it. 
simul iustus et peccator
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I can only tell you my experience concerning the doctrines of grace.
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One year ago, in the Article of the Month, we published John Gerstner's lecture from 1978 PCRT Conference on TULIP and he had this to say regarding which of the 5 Points that was most troublesome for people to accept. In his classic manner, he expresses this here: It is my deep conviction based on many, many encounters, that the main reason people have problems with TULIP and with the Reformed Faith in general is because they do not believe in total depravity. They think it’s the article we’re coming to, unconditional election and limited atonement, but, every time, just yesterday, when I was speaking on a campus in Ohio, it came out once again. I don’t have a time to mention, but every time it comes out, that the seeming opposition to the decrees reveals an already latent, and perhaps unsuspected opposition to this first doctrine. It’s like a person saying “I have a pain in my shoulder” and the physician says “There’s nothing wrong with your shoulder, you’re suffering from gall bladder trouble.” We think it’s the decree that’s the locus of our problem, but, if we look carefully, almost invariably, we’ll be discovering it’s because we can’t take the insult of man as he is described. And if you think, incidentally, that I have been a little rough on you, you should read George Whitfield, taking you to the tomb of Lazarus, for example, and reminding you, that that cadaver is an exact one-to-one correspondence of your dead soul, and making it very, very plain that you stink in the nostrils of almighty God. I think he would have been somewhat disappointed in the inadequacy of my presentation, and all I can say is that George Whitfield is guilty of understatement. It is impossible, to indicate how utterly gone we are. But, if you do once convince yourself of that particular truth, you’ll be just like Martin Luther. You’ll accept unconditional election, even if it weren’t in the Bible! You’d start putting apocryphal literature in there, just to make sure that it was spelled out. It just had to be! In Bondage of the Will, the way Luther, who was a Calvinist before Calvin, as you know, although some Lutherans as you know, don’t always know that. And Luther who was a Calvinist before Calvin puts it is, “I know Martin Luther well enough to know that he would never ever have found his way out of this miry pit if God hadn’t reach down and lifted him out.” It is as simple as that! And once you get that idea, that you are gone, and the thoughts and intents of your heart are only evil continually, you know full well that you have a spark of life in you. If there’s the slightest yearning for holiness, any impulse whatever towards Jesus Christ, is because something has happened to you. God has visited you. This is what the theologians call the divine initiative.
~ John Gerstner
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I can only tell you my experience concerning the doctrines of grace. Unfortunately Tom, your experience is woefully limited and thus not a sound basis upon which to make an accurate judgment. There can be no question that Dr. Gerstner's experience is more than perhaps that of all of the member's experience here combined, he having taught thousands of people, spoken to 10's of thousands of people, traveled the world over, etc. So, in his case, perhaps experience has some merit. OBJECTIVELY, it seems that when one comes to understand how foundational and pivotal the doctrine of Total Depravity is, then it is more than logical to conclude that it would be most hated. Now, in my own experience of 40+ years, if it is of any import, I would have to say that even among those churches which claim to be Reformed, the majority avoid the doctrine of Total Depravity to one degree or another. Just a quick reading of various "Reformed" churches websites "Statement of Faith, "What We Believe", etc. will clearly show that hardly any mention of even the word "depravity", never mind "total depravity". Most of them externalize sin and rarely mention the corruption of nature that ALL are conceived and born with, never mind the "guilt" of which ALL have by imputation of Adam's sin and thus are ALL under God's wrath and judgment and destined to eternal Hell.
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Annie Oakley
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The quote which Gerstner alluded to in his lecture on TULIP by George Whitefield.
Come, ye dead, Christless, unconverted sinner, come and see the place where they laid the body of the deceased Lazarus; behold him laid out, bound hand and foot with grave clothes, locked up and stinking in a dark cave, with a great stone placed on top of it. View him again and again; go nearer to him; be not afraid; smell him, Ah! how he stinketh. Stop there now, pause a while; and whilst thou art gazing upon the corpse of Lazarus, give me leave to tell thee with great plainness, but greater love, that this dead, bound, entombed, stinking carcass, is but a faint representation of thy poor soul in it natural state;...thy spirit which thou bearest about with thee, sepulchered in flesh and blood, is literally dead to God, and as truly dead in trespasses and sins, as the body of Lazarus was in the cave. Was he bound hand and foot with grave clothes? So art thou bound hand and foot with thy corruptions; and as a stone was laid on the sepulchre, so there is a stone of unbelief upon thy stupid heart. Perhaps thou has lain in this estate, not only four days, but many years, stinking in God's nostrils. And, what is still more effecting, thou art as unable to raise thyself out of this loathsome, dead state, to a life of righteousness and true holiness, as ever Lazarus was to raise himself from the cave in which he lay so long. Thou mayest try the power of thy boasted free will, and the force and energy of moral persuasion and rational arguments (which, without doubt, have their proper place in religion); but all thy efforts, exerted with never so much vigor, will prove quite fruitless and abortive, till that same Jesus, who said; take away the stone" and cried "Lazarus, come forth," also quicken you. This is grace, graciously offered, and grace graciously applied.
~ George Whitefield
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Pilgrim
Sorry, I misunderstood the question.
I was talking about the doctrine that gave me the most trouble.
Even before I became convinced about the doctrines of grace, I agreed with totally depravity. Though I didn't know all of its implications.
Tom
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Hi Guys,
I too agree with Robin. Until one understands that Total Depravity means that the whole of man has fallen, then the balance ULIP is not to be understood. At least for me anyway. There is no part of me that was not affected by the fall. Sin affects my mind , my body, my will.
This topic reminded me of what R.C. Sproul said about Adam. If Adam had never sinned then he would not have needed bifocals at middle age. As a matter of fact middle age would have been a meaningless term.
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To be clear, understood in light of Pilgrim's purpose for the thread; the answer is definitely Total Depravity. Sorry again for my confusion.
Tom
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Hi, I'm in Spain and after seeing so many self-called believers (from youngers to elders) in various evangelical churches for years, I'm persuaded that the question given to each of us (especially of nowadays!!) would be quite simple; Have you a honesty and sincerity in front of the words of our Master in John ch.17 vv.1-10 (especially v.6)? (if you say you have accepted the Scriptures as the Gog's) The word of the One who gave his Life for his Father and for you (1John:4:10)?
I think it's normal that we accept what explains J.Calvin to us, and there's no other choice if you really want to reconcile with our Creater who sent his beloved Son to this ugly world FOR ONES WHO COULD RECOGNISE HIS REALITY! And Paul has known it very well so he wrote Romans:11:11-24 (especially see the verse 22!), I suppose.
My conculsion is that; there is no salvation that is easy and human in the thoughts of our God otherwise never(!) he would sent his beloved Son to this world to leave him dead for us. Our God only wants our redeemed heart, repented and really renewed one (Ez:36:26), that is also baptized by his Son (Jn:1:33), because it's our God who had created us by his image... And there is so few people who could accept his such Exigency, and so others say "God is Love, God is Love...", and these are the ones who dislike the scriptural reality that Calvin have revealed.
Very sorry for my poor English, but I wish we could find the reality that our merciful God wants to let us know.
Personally I accept the Calvinistic Methodism that differs from Calivism or Methodism (of J.Weslay), and that seeks correctly a heart-felt relationship with our graceful God through the life and death manifested in this world of his beloved Son, our Intercessor.
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Would sya the 2 that have been most prominent would be thelimited atonement view, and also God election, as some misunderstand both to make God out to be into fatalism!
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Would sya the 2 that have been most prominent would be thelimited atonement view, and also God election, as some misunderstand both to make God out to be into fatalism! Although the initial objection made by most are those two, the underlying real objection is the doctrine of Total Depravity. If one truly understands how far gone man really is, then Unconditional Election and Definite Atonement necessarily follow for both totally eliminate anything in man or any ability in man to secure salvation. The Five Points are an integral whole. Remove one and the rest fall to the ground.
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What is interesting in regards to that doctrine is that both calvinists and arminians would agree that man is incapable/unable to save themselves, apart from the saving grace of God provided for sinners in the Cross of Christ. We really depart quickly though from there, as they seek to bring into it human free will as co assistor to the grace of God.
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What is interesting in regards to that doctrine is that both calvinists and arminians would agree that man is incapable/unable to save themselves, apart from the saving grace of God provided for sinners in the Cross of Christ. We really depart quickly though from there, as they seek to bring into it human free will as co assistor to the grace of God. FYI, historical Arminianism is rarely found in our day. That theological system was officially introduced back in the early 1600's by a group of followers of Jacabus Arminius. It was presented to the Synod of Dordtrech for consideration. The proponents disagreed with the Belgic Confession to which their denomination subscribed and they agreed to embrace and teach. Over a period of 18 months their view was debated and then unanimously rejected as damnable heresy. You can read the Synod's response here: The Canons of Dort. Most all non-Reformed denominations/churches hold to "semi-Pelagianism" which is far worse than Arminianism. Semi-Pelagianism is what the Roman Catholic teaches as well. The difference between Arminianism, semi-Pelagianism, and historic Calvinism in regard to justification is as follows (briefly): 1. Arminianism: Man is totally incapable of repenting and believing the Gospel by nature. However, God has given to ALL men previent grace, which is said to overcome man's natural inability and thus enable ALL to comprehend and believe upon Christ if they will. 2. Semi-Pelagianism: Man is not totally incapable of repenting and believing in Christ because he is not spiritually dead, but contrariwise, man retains a natural ability to exercise his 'free-will' and repent and believe. Thus, as the Arminian system above, justification is grace+faith=justificaiton. Faith, therefore, becomes a work and nullifies justification by grace alone in Christ alone. 3. Calvinism: Man is born with a corrupt nature which is completely antagonistic toward God and all that is good. Man has neither the desire nor ability to repent and believe upon Christ. What is needed is a radical transformation of the soul; the nature itself, which is called regeneration (new birth), resulting in a spiritually alive nature which is predisposed to hate sin, love God and seeks forgiveness and reconciliation solely through the redemption which is in Christ. Only Calvinism holds firmly to salvation by grace alone through faith (God-given) in Christ. (see here: Do You Really Believe that Salvation is by Grace ALONE?). Another excellent article that explains Arminianism and semi-Pelagianism can be found here: The Pelagian Captivity of the Church.
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That semi pel viewpoint seems to be the prominent one currently in American church circles, as the classic arminian one is not held that often it seems!
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That semi pel viewpoint seems to be the prominent one currently in American church circles, as the classic arminian one is not held that often it seems! Correct!  The overwhelming number of evanjellical churches embrace semi-Pelagianism vs. Arminianism. And some even go farther than that and embrace a form of Pelagianism. There are so many apostate churches in our day it is enough to make your head spin. This should not be a big surprise since it has always been this way since the beginning and it will get increasingly worse, for God has made it clear that only a remnant should be saved (Rom 9:27; 11:5; 12:27; Matt 24:22-31; Mk 13:20-22; et al).
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I am a memeber of a Baptist church, that has calvinists such as myself, and arminians, semi pel in it, but the senior pastor teaches strongly on doctrines of grace, and he has alter calls, but also teaches that one must make sure and have a lkife reflecting saved, not justtrusting on a one time event!
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I am a memeber of a Baptist church, that has calvinists such as myself, and arminians, semi pel in it, but the senior pastor teaches strongly on doctrines of grace, and he has alter calls, but also teaches that one must make sure and have a lkife reflecting saved, not justtrusting on a one time event! Could you clarify the above in regard to those various views held by people "in it"? Put another way, are those holding to Arminianism or semi-Pelagianism members in the church you attend?
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Yes, as many would not even realise what those termsd mean, and that they atual believe and hold to those things!
The pastors and elders pretty much all agreed on doctrine/points on Grace....
So required to hold with to teach/lead, but not for laity!
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