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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Anthony C.] #54944
Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:05 PM
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Anthony C.
re: "Are you a 7-day Adventist?"

No. Any particular reason for asking?

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #54945
Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:39 PM
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Anthony,

I ask because I'm wondering why you might need to know if I'm a 7th day Adventist in order for you to be responsive to the OP request?

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55312
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Perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Anthony C.] #55343
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:54 AM
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Anthony C.,

You have a question directed to you in post #54945.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55363
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1 day and night refers to one calendar day, a part of which is often counted as the whole. Christ would have been dead on Friday, Saturday, and early morning on the 1st day of the week (the Christian Sabbath), per Matthew 28, etc.

Now, an example of this there is in the book of Esther which has been given to you and to which you haven't responded:


Esther 4:16
Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

There is made mention of fasting 3 days, night and day. And yet verse 5 on the third day she has a banquet,

Esther 5:1
Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king's house, over against the king's house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house.

The expression three days and three nights therefore allows for partial days in the reckoning expressed by the whole. So John Gill also gives other examples from Jewish writing,

"So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. That Christ means himself by the "son of man", there is no reason to doubt; and his being laid in a tomb, dug out of a rock, is sufficient to answer this phrase, "the heart of the earth", in distinction from the surface of it; but some difficulty arises about the time of his continuing there, and the prediction here made agreeable to the type: for it was on the sixth day of the week, we commonly call "Friday", towards the close, on the day of the preparation for the sabbath, and when the sabbath drew on, that the body of Christ was laid in the sepulchre; where it lay all the next day, which was the sabbath of the Jews, and what we commonly call "Saturday"; and early on the first of the week, usually called "Sunday", or the Lord's day, he rose from the dead; so that he was but one whole day, and part of two, in the grave. To solve this difficulty, and set the matter in a clear light, let it be observed, that the three days and three nights, mean three natural days, consisting of day and night, or twenty four hours, and are what the Greeks call νυχθημερα, "night days"; but the Jews have no other way of expressing them, but as here; and with them it is a well known rule, and used on all occasions, as in the computation of their feasts and times of mourning, in the observance of the passover, circumcision, and divers purifications, that מקצת היום ככולו, "a part of a day is as the whole"F14T. Hieros. Pesach. fol. 31. 2. T. Bab. Moed. Katon, fol. 16. 2. 17. 2. 19. 2. & 20. 2. Bechorot, fol. 20. 2. & 21. 1, Nidda, fol. 33. 1. Maimon. Hilch. Ebel, c. 7. sect. 1, 2, 3. Aben Ezra in Lev. xii. 3. : and so, whatever was done before sun setting, or after, if but an hour, or ever so small a time, before or after it, it was reckoned as the whole preceding, or following day; and whether this was in the night part, or day part of the night day, or natural day, it mattered not, it was accounted as the whole night day: by this rule, the case here is easily adjusted; Christ was laid in the grave towards the close of the sixth day, a little before sun setting, and this being a part of the night day preceding, is reckoned as the whole; he continued there the whole night day following, being the seventh day; and rose again early on the first day, which being after sun setting, though it might be even before sun rising, yet being a part of the night day following, is to be esteemed as the whole; and thus the son of man was to be, and was three days and three nights in the grave; and which was very easy to be understood by the Jews;"

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55364
Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:38 PM
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More similar comments from sound commentators, not hard to look up,

Matthew Poole:

Answer: What we call day and night made up the Jewish nychtemerai;. It appears by Gen 1:5, that the evening and the morning made up a day. Three days and three nights is with us but the same thing with three natural days, and so it must be understood here. Christ was in the grave three natural days, that is, part of three natural days; every one of which days contained a day and a night, viz. twenty-four hours.

Matthew Henry:

He (Christ) continued in the grave just as long as Jonah continued in the fish's belly, three days and three nights; not three whole days and nights: it is probable, Jonah did not lie so long in the whale's belly, but part of three natural days (nychthemerai, the Greeks called them); he was buried in the afternoon of the sixth day of the week, and rose again in the morning of the first day; it is a manner of speech very usual;

see 1Ki 20:29
And they pitched one over against the other seven days. And so it was, that in the seventh day the battle was joined: and the children of Israel slew of the Syrians an hundred thousand footmen in one day.

Est 4:16; Est 5:1; Luk 2:21 So long Jonah was a prisoner for his own sins, so long Christ was a Prisoner for ours.

Albert Barnes

Three days and three nights - It will be seen in the account of the resurrection of Christ that he was in the grave but two nights and a part of three days. This computation is, however, strictly in accordance with the Jewish mode of reckoning. If it had “not” been, the Jews would have understood it, and would have charged our Saviour as being a false prophet, for it was well known to them that he had spoken this prophecy,

 Mat 27:63
Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Such a charge, however, was never made; and it is plain, therefore, that what was “meant” by the prediction was accomplished. It was a maxim, also, among the Jews, in computing time, that a part of a day was to be received as the whole. Many instances of this kind occur in both sacred and profane history.

See 2Ch 10:5
And he said unto them, Come again unto me after three days. And the people departed

 2Ch 10:12
So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me on the third day. 

 Gen 42:17-18
17 And he put them all together into ward three days. 18 And Joseph said unto them the third day, This do, and live; for I fear God

Compare Est 4:16 with Est 5:1.

Last edited by AlexM; Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:39 PM.
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55365
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John Trapp commentary

So shall the Son of man be three days, etc.

Taking a part for the whole. So Esther fasted three days and three nights, Esther 4:16, and yet on the third day she went to the king, Esther 5:1. So, then, the fast lasted not three whole days and nights, but two nights, one full day, and two pieces of days.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55366
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Jesus says (Matthew 16:21) that he will "be raised again the third day." Hence, in Jewish usage {the third day} must mean the same as {three days and three nights}. It was and is customary with the Orientals to make any part of the day stand for the whole twenty-four hours. Compare 

Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mark 8:31
And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Matthew 27:63-64
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: AlexM] #55367
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:26 PM
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AlexM,

re: "1 day and night refers to one calendar day, a part of which is often counted as the whole. Christ would have been dead on Friday, Saturday, and early morning on the 1st day of the week (the Christian Sabbath), per Matthew 28, etc. Now, an example of this there is in the book of Esther which has been given to you and to which you haven't responded:"

I responded to the Esther account in post #50254.




re: "There is made mention of fasting 3 days, night and day. And yet verse 5 on the third day she has a banquet,"

3 days, night and day is not necessarily the same thing as 3 days and 3 nights; but even it is, nothing in the Esther account precludes at least a portion of 3 daytimes and at least a portion on 3 night times. Thus the account is not an example where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have been involved. Likewise, none of your commentators' quotes provide any such examples.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55368
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Sure they do! All the examples show part of a day being counted for the whole. She didnt fast on the night time of the third day, her fast, as Trapp delineates, lasted 2 nights, one full day, and two peices of days.

Also, Gill provides literature from Jews speaking of reckoning part of a day as a whole, and how day and night refers to a calendar day.

There is also the matter of Christ himself saying he would rise on the third day, not after the third night, which further supports this understanding of the idiom.

I'm not sure if you're being selective or skimming, or what.

Last edited by AlexM; Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:41 PM.
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: AlexM] #55369
Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:03 PM
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AlexM,
re: "Sure they do! She didnt fast on the night time of the third day..."

Where does the account show that she couldn't have fasted during any portion of the night time of the third calendar day?



re: "Also, Gill provides literature from Jews speaking of reckoning part of a day as a whole, and how day and night refers to a calendar day."

That's an issue for a different topic.




re: "There is also the matter of Christ himself saying he would rise on the third day, not after the third night, which further supports this understanding of the idiom."

That's an issue for a different topic.



re: "I'm not sure if you're being selective or skimming, or what."

I don't understand what that means. I wonder if you might elaborate.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55371
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:09 PM
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Turns out you are being selective because you're dismissing relevant points as issues "for another topic".

They are very relevant for this topic.

As for Esther, my point is about the use of idiom. She says she will fast three days night and day and "then" go to see the king, but then she goes to see him on the third day, which obviously could not have been after having fasted on the third night as well, becuause she didnt wait until after the third night to go see him.

Last edited by AlexM; Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:11 PM.
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: AlexM] #55373
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:44 PM
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AlexM,
re: "Turns out you are being selective because you're dismissing relevant points as issues 'for another topic'."

I have not dismissed any relevant points with regard to the issue of this topic because there haven't been any. What I'm dismissing are comments that have been made for a different topic. This one is concerned with one issue and only one issue, i.e., the issue with regard to the commonality of saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.



re: "As for Esther, my point is about the use of idiom. She says she will fast three days night and day and THEN go to see the king, but then she goes to see him on the third day, which could have been after having fasted on the third night as well.

And that is what I am saying - that at least a part of a third night could have been involved, therefore the Esther account is not an example where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55374
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How can you demonstrate part of the night time was involed when Esther went to see him on the third day? Which means, before night time.

And yes you have dismissed them because those examples all speak of something happening *after* a calendar day, and then the thing is said to take place on the day, not after, which means the night was not included.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55378
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:25 AM
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I think I see the problem. You're using a sunrise to sunrise calendar day and I'm using a sundown to sundown calendar day. I will need to add that to my next clarification of the OP.

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