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#5688 Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:00 PM
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I have consistently seen others, who need not be named, require others to prove their beliefs and practices by scripture alone. I am wondering if this is defensible. Did any early church writers, reformers, or any group prior to the extreme Puritans hold to Solo Scriptura? Isn't there a big difference? Sola Scriptura meaning scripture that scripture is the ultimate and final authority, whereas Solo Scriptura means only what's found in scripture? Is Solo Scriptura defendable by Solo Scriptura?<br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william

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Methinks you have a misunderstanding of what [color:red]SOLO Scriptura means! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img]

You will greatly benefit from reading this article: A Critique of the Evangelical Doctrine of "Solo Scriptura" by Keith Mathison.

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Ah! So there's yet another problem in the modern church laid bare. It certainly helps to explain the origins of Pentecostalism . . .<br><br>


Kyle

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Indeed, which is one of the reasonings as to why I left pentecostalism. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile[/img]<br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william

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The first time I questioned tongues-speaking from within the faith was when I realized just how ahistorical it is. Why, I wondered, had the Reformers missed it? Indeed, why had the church catholic missed it since the days of the Apostles?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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Exactly. I am catholic.......but not Catholic. I denied my fathers LDS beliefs for the same reason. Matthew 16:18 is abundantly clear to me, though I deny the Roman heresy concerning the definition of Church. <br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william

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This is such a red herring.<br><br>If you look at the history of the church, there is no question that many Christians before the advent of Pentecostalism have claimed charisms. St. Francis of Asissi, for instance, had undergone the stigmata. And while many people here will be quick to denounce St. Francis as just another beacon of popery, perhaps it is best to simply say that medieval men, although prone to superstition, were often true in their witnesses.<br><br>There is no question that there are excesses within the charismatic movement -- I will be first to denounce the doctrine of sinless perfection and "tongues" as prerequisite for being filled with the Holy Spirit, but isn't this simply an instance of throwing out the baby with the bathwater?<br><br>Indeed, what does the presence of charisms have to do with solo scriptura vs. sola scriptura?

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ricochet,<br><br>I can fully understand you wanting to defend your Pentecostalism...... and you are certainly free to do so here. However, if that's the direction this thread is going to go, then I would suggest to ALL that a new thread be started for that purpose, please?! [Linked Image]<br><br>It doesn't matter who starts the thread either! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,


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My point was simply that charisms has nothing to do with solo scriptura vs. sola scriptura.

#5697 Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:43 PM
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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]If you look at the history of the church, there is no question that many Christians before the advent of Pentecostalism have claimed charisms. St. Francis of Asissi, for instance, had undergone the stigmata. And while many people here will be quick to denounce St. Francis as just another beacon of popery, perhaps it is best to simply say that medieval men, although prone to superstition, were often true in their witnesses.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>In my experience within Pentecostalism, the stigmata were never once mentioned among the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, so I fail to see the relevance of Francis. The stigmata seem to me more a superstitious invention than much else.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Indeed, what does the presence of charisms have to do with solo scriptura vs. sola scriptura?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>It hasn't got so much to do with the presence of the charismata so much as it has got to do with historical roots of Pentecostalism, which very much stemmed from this "solo scriptura" attitude. Charles Parham, credited as Pentecostalism's first proponent in the U.S., had an interpretation of Scripture very much his own.


Kyle

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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]My point was simply that charisms has nothing to do with solo scriptura vs. sola scriptura.</font><hr></blockquote><p> <br><br>(Fred) I would disagree. It has all to do with this topic. All of the charismatics I have encountered over the years, both extreme and mild, appeal to the scripture to validate their experience. Usually, that validation is a mish-mash of poor exegesis and the redefining of biblical terms in order to fit the person's belief concerning their experience. What would be called "Solo Scriptura." Even Grudem, who you mentioned in your introductory post (someone who I respect, by the way), does this with his redefining of prophecy, so as to defend present day prophetic announcements that may fail. <br><br>Fred


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That's a great article, Pilgrim. Unfortunately, it really doesn't present a solution to the problem. What's your throughts?

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In reply to:
[color:"blue"]What's your thoughts?

Vince,

I actually have several! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] The first thing I would recommend is that you read the entire book. That would only be fair to Keith. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]

And, I must admit that although Keith does have a definite "solution", IMHO, it wasn't brought out that clearly in the book and I was compelled to contact him personally and ask for clarification. He's a member of this board but hasn't been active in quite some time. Whether he will read this and respond for himself is unfortunately doubtful but it would be great if he did.

Here are my own personal thoughts on this issue. Sola Scriptura simple means that the Bible, God's inspired, infallible and inerrant Word is the sole and final authority in all matters of doctrine and life. I believe the framers of the WCF and others like it were right on the money. In short, it is the Bible and the Bible alone that we are to submit our questions to and submit to the truth therein. However.. I firmly believe that the Bible doesn't teach a "me, the Bible and the Holy Spirit" is all that one needs to arrive at the "truth once delivered to the saints". The Spirit was first and foremost given to the apostles for the building of the Church upon the cornerstone of Christ. The Spirit was the One who appointed some to be Apostles, some teachers, evangelists, pastor/teachers, etc. for the upbuilding of the church, upon the foundation laid by the Apostles. It was thus to the Church that God entrusted the "truth once delivered to the saints". Now, the Church doesn't create truth, but rather it was given that the Church be the upholder and herald of that already established truth. This is in contradistinction to what Rome claims, i.e., truth comes from God through the church to the people.

Now, part of the last building blocks which I believe the Lord laid through the people of the church are the Ecumenical Creeds. To these, for the most part, the entire body of Christ throughout the known world gave assent to the verity of these Creeds; e.g., Athanasian, Nicene, Chalcedon, etc. Thus for anyone to claim that the doctrine of God should not include Trinity as set forth in the Athanasian and Nicene Creeds, they are de facto in error and not part of the church. Are these Creeds therefore to be deemed "infallible"? No, they are still documents which are subordinate to the Scriptures. However, they are, in fact, true to the infallible and inspired Word and thus are to be given due recognition as being what they are intended to be.

Okay... so what about all these other Confessions and Catechisms which have been written, e.g., Westminster Confession of Faith, Belgic Confession, London Confession, Savoy, etc. These documents likewise are not inspired but rather summaries of biblical doctrines which gifted men sought to put in writing for the Church; i.e., that branch of the Church to which they belonged. These documents too are subordinate in authority to the Scriptures and are subject to scrutiny by the Scriptures, which most all of the Confessions state for themselves. However, those who are members of a confessional church are subject to the teachings of that denominations documents of faith and are subject to their teachings. So, a member of a Presbyterian church would be required to acknowledge the subordinate authority of the WCF, Larger and Shorter Catechisms. But a Calvinistic Baptist who belongs to a church that subscribes to the London or Philadelphia Confession would not be subject to the WCF where it deviates from the teachings of the London Confession. But that same Baptist and vice versa a Presbyterian would recognize the verity of those doctrines which are contained in both. So, that when one looks at the great Confessions of the denominations which came out of the Reformation, one can see a large body of uniform teaching cross-denominationally. This corpus of teaching is to be acknowledged as the voice of the Spirit in the Scriptures Who has spoken to the Church and preserved the "truth once delivered unto the saints". We may disagree with various non-essential doctrines taught in the various Confessions, but the onus is upon the one who would disagree with the essentials to show from the Scriptures that the church historically has erred.

In short, it is my opinion, that God by His Spirit has entrusted His truth to the Church as a whole and given it the responsibility to teach that truth. Individuals within the Church body, being indwelt with the Holy Spirit will find oneness with that truth and reject that which has come in via false teachers. No man can claim to have the truth which is totally alienated from the Church as a whole, for if a person truly belongs to Christ, then he/she has been brought not into some individual salvation, but to the Church of the Living God and the company of the saints, past, present and future. Truth doesn't "belong" to individuals (SOLO) totally unrelated to other individuals. The truth is found in the Scriptures alone (SOLA) and subordinately in the Body of Christ universal.


There are two really good articles which I think help to set this principle out in clearer terms and by two very gifted and godly men:

Tradition: Romish and Protestant by John Murray

What Do We Mean by Sola Scriptura? by Dr. Robert Godfrey

In His Grace,


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