Delivered said:
I think that you have not proven that the text in 1 Cor:13 says that the Bible is "that which is perfect" and the entire chapter deals with the topic of Love. It shows that love is so important that everything else is unprofitable without it. The scripture ends in speaking about a transition from inexperienced to experienced. It is more likely that the scriptures in Colossians 1:28, 2Timothy 3:17, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrew 7:19, Hebrews 13:7, Speaks of a state of perfection in Christ and support the premise being discussed in this chapter. A transition into the state of perfection. Being face to face with Christ. Until that comes then I dont think that we can be so snug in our knowledge of the things of God.
You completely ignored my question about the abiding nature of faith and hope in v. 13. How do faith and hope abide
when Christ has returned? Besides which, what is it that makes the man "complete" in your citation of II Tim. 3:17? None other than SCRIPTURE, per v. 16 of the same chapter. Nevertheless, there are plenty of other reasons to reject your notion that the charismatic gifts are continuing.
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that now in 2005 or the years leading up to it we have no more need for revelations and private communication with God through whatever Tongues He chooses.
Nowhere does it state that we DO have such a need. In fact, to imagine that we need revelation still after the Bible has been completed undermines the authority of the Bible and leaves us ever waiting for further and further information about God's purposes. The Bible reveals all we need to know of God's purposes and all we need to know of doctrine. Furthermore, there is not such thing as a private prayer language. Such an idea is based on a faulty understanding of I Cor. 14, where Paul is explicit in making the point that tongues are for the edification of the entire church and for a sign to unbelievers. The notion of a private prayer language is utterly contradictory to Paul's point.
How many of us are running out there taking care of those in need? Speaking to those outside of our closed groups? Literally taking the Gospel to all we come in contact with? If we have that which is perfect how is it that some read the Bible and still need someone else to interpret it? The Bible is the Perfect inspired Word of God. Without a doubt. But the text cannot possibly be refering to the Bible as we have not yet achieved that state of perfection where we can just read it and have a full understanding of all things contained in it and we certainly do not stick to what is written therein.
Where do you get the idea that this "state of perfection" you describe it what I'm talking about? The Bible contains all we need to know. It is indeed perfect and by paying it heed we attain to maturity in the faith.
Without the movement of the Holy Spirit, without dialogue with the Holy Spirit, without the intervention of the Holy Spirit even in our Prayers (1 Cor 14:14-15, Romans 8:26) Tongues and Prophecy are necessary to the bringing of information that we need in our daily walk and they are as necessary as any other spiritual gift all for the edification of the Church of Jesus Christ.
I Cor. 14::14–15 has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit intervening, but is part of Paul's criticism of the misuse of tongues by the Corinthians. And clearly Rom. 8:26 is not talking about tongues. It says, "but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with
groanings too deep for words"! Tongues and prophecy are NOT necessary in our daily walk precisely because the completed Bible contains the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD. What possibly can tongues and prophecy reveal to us about God's plan that is not in the Bible??
Chapter 12 describes the gifts and verse 11 of Chapter 12 states that it is the Holy Spirit that determines who gets what. Verses 25 through to 28 speaks of the importance of these diverse gifts. Verse 31 leading into Chapter 13 showing a more excellent state to pursue. The end of chapter 13 speaking to greatest thing when compared to those listed, love. We know in part and we prophesy in part. To say that we now have that which is perfect is to say that you now know all things in full. Do you know all things in full? I dont!
I can know all I need to know of God's will through the Bible.
You ask about finding a place in the Bible that says that the Angels speak in a different Language than men, it should interest you to know that the Scripture in 1 Cor 13 begins by diferentiating Tongues (Language) of men separate from Angels. I know that you cannot mean that.
It says, "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels." It does not say, "Angels speak different tongues than men." The whole text here is speaking in superlatives. When angels speak, they speak perfectly. That's all Paul is doing here, is describing the best of a spiritual gift one can have, and saying that even the very best is nothing compared to love. But even then, with every instance of an angel speaking in Scripture, it is ALWAYS in a language that men can understand. I Cor. 13:1 affords absolutely no evidence that modern "tongues" are some unknown, heavenly language.
I believe that these texts discussed provide a support for the theme discussed in Corinthians than your lack of providing a scripture that states that the Bible is the perfect thing referred to in the text, therefore proving your point that we are currently living in a dispensation where prophecy and tongues have ended. Chapter 14 begins by encouraging believers to desire spiritual gifts especially prophecy, and many still do today however your theology maintains a premise that it cannot prove nor support within the pages of the scriptures. If your theology is true then whole chapters in the new testament of the bible have no bearing on our walk when in fact the scriptures teach that all of it is for our growth and transition into that perfect man in Christ.
So, am I to suppose on this basis that all of the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament are still in effect, because according to you, if they have ceased then the Scripture is violated which says that "all of it is for our growth and transition into that perfect man in Christ"? It doesn't have to be in effect today for it to be beneficial to our growth to study!
