Joe k said:
Did you read the article on this site by Hopkins?
I am also confused by you saying you are in the majority, but appear to be agreeing with what I say. Is regeneration without means the majority or the minority? I thought I would be considered outside the traditional majority opinion on this.
I find a teaching that speaks of regeration as a process wrong and blends it with conversion. I dont believe you have regenerate people walking around for years without hearing the Word, but one must be brought to life before given the light. I am not sure of the immediacy of conversion after though. Paul says the Gospel brings light to life.
1) <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> I am the one who put that article on The Highway. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
2) Sorry for the confusion. I agree that regeneration is an
immediate act but disagree that it is without means. There are a couple of
exceptions given in Scripture, Jeremiah and John the Baptist, but they are NOT paradigmatic. God's dealing with those two individuals was "outside" the norm and for a very special purpose.
As far as the immediacy of conversion following regeneration, the way you have stated your view is that which is confusing. You clearly state that you do not hold, and I agree, that a person can be regenerated and then walk around for years before they are converted. Yet you also state that you aren't sure about the "immediacy" of conversion following regeneration. Is there some "spiritual limbo" you have in mind that stands between regeneration and conversion? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />
The purpose of regeneration is to enable a sinner to be reconciled to God through union with Christ by faith. It is through the preaching/reading of the Gospel that the Holy Spirit works regeneration so that the quickened individual is convicted of sin and then responds to that message of salvation by faith in Christ. A new nature isn't something that exists apart from its intended purpose; salvation. In the Scriptures we consistently read that Christ was set forth in the Gospel, the Holy Spirit regenerated [explicitly stated or implied] and consequently the hearer(s) responded to the Gospel immediately thereafter.
3) See above re: time gap between regeneration and conversion.
Part of the confusion which is quite common, actually, is due to the working definition of the term regeneration as used by some of the older writers and those of later writers. As I tried to explain to you before, the earlier writers sometimes defined regeneration as a broad term which included both the quickening/re-creating of the soul; impartation of the new nature, AND conversion. Later, regeneration was defined more narrowly and distinguished between the monergistic work of the Holy Spirit, quickening and the resulting conversion of it. There is no real contradiction between the earlier usage of the term and the latter usage. Again, it is simply that the earlier writers used the term in a much broader sense, although they did make a distinction between the actually quickening and the later and consequent conversion.
Lastly, I have no idea what purpose you wrote, "
Paul says the Gospel brings light to life." or how it relates to the relationship between regeneration and conversion? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> Can you explain what you are trying to prove, if in fact you are trying to prove anything from that statement?
In His grace,
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