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Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
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Ehud said: My only point is those who perished in the wilderness are at one point referred to as the people of Yahweh. That's my only point. And my question follows that if God can refer to all of Israel as "My people" even though all of Israel is not Israel, then why can't we call our "holy" baptized babies "Christians"? You just ain't getting it, eh? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> God referred to the nation of Israel as the "people of God" as a conglomerate which was the VISIBLE CHURCH within which were both believers and unbelievers. But by doing so it does not follow that God considered the unbelievers to be His "people". Nor does it follow that the appellation "people of God" was applied specifically to the unbelievers among them. And lastly, in case you don't get it yet.. it's one thing to address a congregation within which the pastor knows there are believers as "beloved in the Lord" but it doesn't mean that he considers everyone in attendance to be true Christians. Again, this heretical idea of one being "in the covenant" somehow qualifies one to be called a Christian or to be presumed regenerate is nowhere to be found in God's inspired word. Ehud said: I agree that Augustine has some problems with baptism. But the point is he allowed for children to be called Christians, and to your admission Calvin allowed for children to be members of the true church. Now the WSC doesn't have a question, "What is baptism for unbelieving babies?" All it asks is "What is Baptism?" It seems to me that if the WSC wanted to make such an important disticntion as you have made that it would have taken the time to address the difference in baptism of believers and baptism of infants. On this point Augustine was dead wrong and Calvin erred. Neither had a biblical warrant for their respective views re: infants/children being regarded as "Christians". The question you raised about the WSC not including a section on baptizing unbelieving infants is irrelevant. Whether an infant of believing parents has faith or not is a mute issue because the faith of the recipient does not determine the efficacy or meaning of the sacrament. This is the error which Baptists have always laboured under unfortunately. What baptism means is propositionally true. The application of those truths depends upon the spiritual condition of the recipient. Thus where faith exists ALL of what baptism means is applicable. Where no faith is present, NONE of what baptism means is applicable at that time. However, if a child is eventually called of God by the Spirit, regenerated, given faith is therefore converted, then ALL that baptism signifies THEN applies. Receiving baptism is not to be understood as a cart blanche receiving of God's salvific grace. IF that were true then ALL who are baptized are of necessity heirs of eternal life in Christ Jesus. But we've been down that road already and you took a turn off right from the start. Ehud said:How is this for context for the WSC? Elect infants do ordinarily receive the Spirit in baptism, as the first efficient principle of furture actual regenreation...It is most agreeable to the institution of Christ, that all elect infants that are baptized....do ordinarily receive, from Christ, the Spirit in baptism, for their first solemn initiation into Christ, and for their future actual renovation, in God's good time, if they live to years of discretion, and enjoy the other ordinary means of grace appointed of God to this end. I don't see where this does anything for your argument. In fact, it serves my argument quite nicely. Again, notice the CONTEXT of whom he speaks..... "elect infants". He is speaking objectively and not subjectively of every infant who is baptized. ONLY "elect" infants are guaranteed future regeneration and are called to faith, aka: conversion "in God's good time". There is nothing here that warrants presuming the regeneration of ALL infants nor of any infant in particular. He is simply but clearly referring to a specific group of infants; i.e., those who are "elect". A similar truth is found in the WCF:X:III-IV which states: III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested. In His grace,
simul iustus et peccator
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Entire Thread
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Paedocommunion
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Ehud
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Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:50 AM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:39 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Ehud
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Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:39 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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J_Edwards
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Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:50 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Ehud
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Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:58 AM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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J_Edwards
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Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:13 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Ehud
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Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:51 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Pilgrim
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Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:24 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Ehud
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Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:03 AM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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J_Edwards
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Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:04 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Ehud
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Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:29 AM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:17 AM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Ehud
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Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:08 AM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:35 AM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Ehud
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Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:44 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Pilgrim
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Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:48 PM
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asking for clarification
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Ehud
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Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:56 AM
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Re: asking for clarification
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Pilgrim
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Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:11 PM
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Re: asking for clarification
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Ehud
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Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:43 PM
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Re: asking for clarification
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Pilgrim
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Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:30 AM
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Again, I request more clarification
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Ehud
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Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:41 AM
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Re: Again, I request more clarification
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Pilgrim
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Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:32 AM
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Fair enough
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Ehud
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Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:16 AM
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Re: Fair enough
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Pilgrim
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Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:04 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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J_Edwards
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Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:34 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:44 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Ehud
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Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:39 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:57 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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J_Edwards
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Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:00 AM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:17 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Ehud
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Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:12 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:57 PM
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Re: Paedocommunion
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Ehud
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Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:08 AM
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