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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 19
Plebeian
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Plebeian
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 19 |
Pilgrim touches on an important point, namely what is free-will anyway? Bad definitions of "free-will" cause confusion.
Jonathan Edwards wrote extensively on it, and defined free-will exactly the way Pilgrim did.
Many think free-will means the ability to choose between good and evil. God Himself is not "free" by that definition, thus we can conclude it is a bogus definition according to Edwards, since any reasonable definition of free-will must acknowledge God as the most free being in existence. The Bible also flatly denies that sinners have any ability to choose good.
Free-will is simply the ability to choose what you desire. Your nature determines what you desire. Sinners will choose sin every time, their only true freedom is to choose among which sins they will gratify, and even then their freedom is limited, since they cannot gratify all their evil desires, despite great efforts in many instances.
They are nonetheless fully accountable for their choices. When Pilgrim writes that God does not violate our free-will it might be better said that God does not violate our accountability. Put another way, He never causes someone to sin, but He is certainly capable of using evil for His purposes, without ever being stained by sin Himself. A lot has been written on this subject.
God does not bend wills, He changes natures. Regeneration changes the nature from one that chooses sin constantly to one that chooses righteousness instead. God's nature is perfect, He chooses good always, because it is His nature to do so. God is also the only being who always gets what He wants, thus again this definition of free-will assigns God His rightful place.
The ability to choose between good and evil is a weakness, Adam and Eve both had it, so did the Angels, God has no such weakness. Once evil is chosen chosen however, there is no going back. All ability to choose good is forever lost, the will is crippled to only choose evil thereafter. The Bible calls this bondage to sin.
Only regeneration restores true free-will according to Edwards and Luther. We now have the ability to choose good again. And we have lost the ability to choose evil. Passages refer to believers as unable to sin (it means in the heart however). And our glorified state is referred to as incorruptible, where the outward manifestation will fully reveal the inner transformation that God has wrought in our hearts.
Calvin rejected the term free-will (as applied to sinners) since he was convinced that the common man would naturally assign the wrong meaning to it despite lengthy discourses. Luther called it the bondage of the will (to sin). Whatever you want to call it, they meant what Edwards meant.
Hope this helps,
- Kurt
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Entire Thread
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Gods Character??
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Clint
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Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:11 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:50 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:18 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Kurt Hutchison
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:09 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:28 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:56 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:28 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:25 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:30 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:52 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Paul_S
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:04 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Robin
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:33 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:25 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Machaira
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:42 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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John_C
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:24 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Machaira
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:18 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:16 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:40 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Kurt Hutchison
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Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:17 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:23 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:51 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:35 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:01 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:04 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:22 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Kurt Hutchison
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:26 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:31 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:23 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:51 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:42 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:52 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:36 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:01 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:22 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:16 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Paul_S
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:52 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:17 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:00 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:30 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:24 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:27 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:41 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:22 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:30 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:12 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:00 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:16 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:54 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:08 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:36 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:40 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:11 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:31 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:19 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:52 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:38 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:06 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:28 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:06 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:51 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:39 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:11 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:50 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:08 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:46 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:50 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Robin
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Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:16 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:18 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:16 PM
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Re: Gods Character?
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William
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:38 PM
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Re: Gods Character?
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Robin
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:35 AM
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Re: Gods Character?
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William
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:41 AM
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Re: Gods Character?
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Joe k
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:16 AM
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Re: Gods Character?
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:20 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:10 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:55 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:29 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:32 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:41 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:20 AM
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My apologies.
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Clint
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Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:48 AM
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Re: My apologies.
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Robin
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Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:01 AM
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Re: My apologies.
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William
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Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:22 PM
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Re: My apologies.
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missionaryman
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Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:01 AM
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