Jason: >> I give Scott full credit for coming as close as he can to the biblical doctrine without disowning his own denomination. But what you need to consider, RefBap, is that Roman Catholic Justification is more of a disposition than a position. In addition to that, it is important to unpack Scott's sentence to expose the Roman doctrine for what it is.

First of all, Scott guards himself from the idea that works outside of a state of grace lead to salvation and positively writes that they lead to sanctification, which is flirting with deception (his sanctification = "increase of Justification" in Roman Catholic theology), but we'll give him the benefit of the doubt. What he does not say in the clearer, Tridentine manner of explaining justification is that these works done in a state of grace are meritorious and are what merit a person eternal life <<

Jason - you misrepresent Catholic Teaching, and I was attempting to clarify it. There is no "increase in justification" for justification is the "final phase" in the economy of salvation. Those justified ARE saved, period. Good works done in the state of grace (grace preceeding) are meritorious and lead to an increase in sanctification. Sanctification can lead to more rewards in heaven - but if one is not sanctified, he will not be justified and if not justified, will not be "saved."

Your out-of-context quotes from Catholic teaching are very misleading. You cannot take snippets from our Faith and then present your argumentation. Catholicism includes what I have said, thus an out-of-context quote that ignores a more complete treatment of the subject doesn't tell the whole story here. I don't accuse you of deliberately being deceptive, for I believe you're only repeating propaganda that you've been taught regarding the Catholic Faith. Nonetheless, you're not presenting the truth regarding the Catholic Faith if you don't present the whole truth. Might I suggest, if you (or anyone else) has a challenge regarding Catholicism - let a Catholic represent his/her Faith. My purpose in answering this thread was not to challenge RefBap - but to clarify Catholic teaching on this matter. I am not attempting to deceive anyone here regarding the Church's teaching on sanctification or justification - I hope you're open to hearing the full story, and not just what those who have an agenda against the Catholic Church have to say.

We had a very similar discussion in the #CathApol Chatroom earlier this evening (I guess that's really "yesterday" now). I presented this "hierarchy" in regard to works/sanctification/justification:

Catholicism is not a "works = salvation" system at all.
for without GRACE - works are nothing.
without WORKS there is no sanctification.
without SANCTIFICATION there is no justification.
without JUSTIFICATION there is no SALVATION.

It all begins with Grace.

Paul teaches, quite consistently, that we must persevere in our faith to be saved. James, likewise says that a faith that has no works is not a "saving faith." Throughout the NT we're told of all the things we must "do" (works) or we do not have that "saving faith."

Quite often challengers to Catholicism will point out Paul contrasting Faith and Works - but invariably, Paul is speaking about "works of the law" and NOT "works done in/by/through Grace." As I mentioned earlier, Paul also, quite often, speaks of "persevering" and "running to win..." (etc.) so Paul too sees the importance of "works" in a "saving faith." James and Paul are quite consistent when read in the proper perspective and context.

In JMJ,

Scott<<<
CathApol Chatroom: http://www.a2z.org/acts/cathapol