Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Originally Posted by Hitch
The quote from the prophet;

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

The context and v20 directly rule out eternity. I think literalism has as good a place here as it does in J 11;26.
scratchchin Again, I'm really puzzled because the CONTEXT begins in verse 17 with "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:", which certainly is referring to the eternal state, e.g.,
You do strain at times Pilgrim. This is one of those times. Isa no more certainly refers to the eternal state than the writer of Hebrews refers to the physical planet (9;26) And to say the prophet jumps from before the Messiah straight on the the eternal state, as though the church is parenthetical ?
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2 Peter 3:10-13 (ASV) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in [all] holy living and godliness, looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

It seems quite clear, at least to me that this NT passage, which takes precedence over an OT passage which is less clear to boot, is that the present creation is going to be cleansed by fire from which process a new heaven and earth will emerge purified. And one more:
If memory serves Owen relates this passage to the destruction.
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Revelation 21:1-5 (ASV) "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true."

Here again, we have the "new heaven and a new earth" which is the new creation, the telos of God's redemptive plan for the ages, aka: the eternal state.
As is the christian believer a new creature, believers are certainly a current reality, and Christ according to Hebrews came in the end of the world.
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So, either you take verse 17 'literally' along with the rest of the passage up to Isa 20 (no pick & choose allowed), which means it is a description of the eternal state. OR, you redefine the phrase "new heaven and a new earth" to mean something entirely different and temporal compared to all the other passages which clearly speak of them as the final eschaton. I opt for the former and take it literally as referring to the eternal state and see the rest of the passage, including v. 20 as a contrast to what was the current situation of Isaiah's day, i.e., death predominated both children and adults and long life was but a fading dream.
That one stretched so far it broke. I dont see that it makes any sense at all according to the text and is arrived at by need.
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"Posties" take this passage in a similar manner as the Dispensationalists because they too are looking for some alleged "Golden Age", a literal Millennium on earth. Obviously, I disagree. grin
Actually the A -Mil and the Dispensationalists agree that the work of the cross and the resulting resurrection of Christ leave the world in much the same sate as before the Nativity and both expect the Gospel to lose effectiveness as history continues.

As the song says ;' Bad Company' heh heh