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Re: Double predestination [Re: Pilgrim] #29700
Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:18 PM
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It is a far different thing to hold that "sin is . . . God's creation" than it is to hold that God decreed that sin should happen and providentially bring it to pass.
What is the difference ?

Quote
God is NOT the "Author of sin
well lets look at the definition of author= The writer of a book, article, or other text.
One who practices writing as a profession.
One who writes or constructs an electronic document or system, such as a website.
An originator or creator, as of a theory or plan.
Author God.
This latter definition hits the nail on the head...

God is the author of sin , that is sin found it`s origin in the sovereign will of God.

Sin does not emante from within the essence and Intrinsic Being of God, however it does emanate from within His sovereign purpose and good pleasure...He created sin , He decreed the fall of adam for His purpose.

Quote
created beings, both angelic and human are the authors of sin and responsible for it.
Hold on there, thats attributing a little too much power to mere creatures don`t you think ? If what you mean is that they author sin by being its creator , thats dead wrong , God created all things , wether it be good or evil
Isa 45: 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Job, a man with an anointed understanding said job 2: 10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. see also job 42: 11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Now if what you mean is that men are morally accountable for their acts of sin, I agree. But even mens acts of sin find their origin in and by the sovereign will of God ! Aprime example is in acts 2:23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Quote
All the historic Reformed Confessions and Catechisms are very clear on this matter in stating that "God is not the author of sin", albeit He decreed that sin should come into the realm of the angelic host and all mankind.


I have read some of those creeds and confessions and a lot of them are reluctant to admit that God created Sin for His purpose and for His Glory.

here is a simple definition for create= To cause to exist; bring into being.


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29701
Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:04 PM
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beloved57 said:


Sin does not emante from within the essence and Intrinsic Being of God, however it does emanate from within His sovereign purpose and good pleasure...He created sin , He decreed the fall of adam for His purpose.

I have read some of those creeds and confessions and a lot of them are reluctant to admit that God created Sin for His purpose and for His Glory.

here is a simple definition for create= To cause to exist; bring into being.


Beloved57,

Quote
C.D. Cole offers his opinion on this topic:

This is one of the most difficult questions in theology. Since God made everything good in the original creation, how did sin get started? How was a good creation thrown into rebellion against its Creator? By whom and how was sin originated? There is much we cannot know about the question. But there are some necessary inferences.

1. Sin is not eternal; it had a beginning. The Gnostics believed in two eternal principles: good and evil.

2. Sin was not created by God. God created everything good; He is not the Author of sin. Moral beings were without sin when created. Satan was created a sinless and perfect being "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Eze 28:15). God made man upright. "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions" (Ec 7:29).

3. Sin was not the necessary result of finiteness. Some claim that because God made man a finite being sin was inevitable. But if this be true, men will always be sinners for none of us will ever become infinite. Infinity belongs only to God.

4. Sin had its origin in a principle of negation, which means that it is not the result of any positive force. Moral beings were created good, but not immutably and independently good. This would have made them equal with God; it would have involved the absurdity of God creating another God. God alone is immutable and independent. There cannot be more than one God, self-existent and self-sufficient, sovereign and supreme.


If you want to read the rest of his study you can find it here.

So sin had its origin in the withholding of that grace necessary to sustain moral beings in a state of holiness. If God had not permitted sin there could have been no display of some of His most glorious attributes. Surely it is not too much to say that God permitted sin that He might overrule it "to the praise of the glory of His grace" (Eph 1:6).

One of our older confessions, the Belgic Confession tells us: " We believe that God created man out of the dust of the earth, and made and formed him after His own image and likeness, good, righteous, and holy, capable in all things to will agreeably to the will of God. But being in honor, he understood it not, neither knew his excellency, but wilfully subjected himself to sin and consequently to death and the curse, giving ear to the words of the devil. For the commandment of life, which he had received, he transgressed; and by sin separated himself from God, who was his true life; having corrupted his whole nature; whereby he made himself liable to corporal and spiritual death."

You may also benifit from reading Supralapsarianism and Infralapsarianism by Herman Bavinck.



Wes

Last edited by Wes; Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:25 PM.

When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29702
Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:10 PM
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B57 states that God is the Author of Sin. He is a liar! This is blasphemy!

While one would admit that the existence of sin in the universe is under the jurisdiction of God who is infinite in His wisdom, power, holiness, and justice, this does not make God sin’s author. One impugns the very nature of God by suggesting such. Westminster is careful to safeguard the character of God from even a suggestion of evil. Sin is referred to the freedom which is given to the agent, and of all sinful acts whatever they emphatically affirm that “the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is. nor can be the author or approver of sin.” (V. 4.)

As Boettner says in The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, While one cannot entirely explain how God in His secret counsel rules/overrules the wicked acts of men, we know that whatever God does He never turns from His own perfect justice and thus He is never sin’s author. God is HOLY <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bow.gif" alt="" />, not the author of sin. God permits sin, but hates it with a perfect hatred. The motive which God has in permitting sin and the motive which man has in committing it are thoroughly different. Many persons are deceived because they fail to judge righteously that God wills righteously those things which men do wickedly. The Scriptures tell us that God is perfectly righteous. Since in all of His acts upon which we are competent of passing judgment we find that He is perfectly righteous, we trust Him in those realms which have not yet been revealed to us. We can rest assured that the Judge of all the earth will do right (Gen 18:25).

The fall of Adam was not by chance, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God. However, God in no way compelled man to fall (to sin) and thus is not the author of sin. He created man perfectly. God simply withheld that undeserved constraining grace with which Adam would infallibly not have fallen. However, God was under no obligation to bestow it. Adam acted as freely as if there had been no decree, and yet as infallibly as if there had been no liberty. God’s decree does not take away man’s liberty; and in the fall Adam freely exercised the natural emotions of his will.

Edwards answers you B57: "If by 'the author of sin,' be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing . . . . it would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin." But, he argues, willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God's permission, but not by his "positive agency." God is, Edwards says, "the permitter . . . of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the state of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted . . . will most certainly and infallibly follow." Thus in one sense God wills that what he hates come to pass, as well as what he loves. Edwards says,

Quote
God may hate a thing as it is in itself, and considered simply as evil, and yet . . . it may be his will it should come to pass, considering all consequences. . . . God doesn't will sin as sin or for the sake of anything evil; though it be his pleasure so to order things, that he permitting, sin will come to pass; for the sake of the great good that by his disposal shall be the consequence. His willing to order things so that evil should come to pass, for the sake of the contrary good, is no argument that he doesn't hate evil, as evil: and if so, then it is no reason why he may not reasonably forbid evil as evil, and punish it as such.

God does not delight in evil as evil, as an author would do. Rather he "wills that evil comes to pass . . . that good may come of it." (Gen. 50:20)

Quote
B57 bombs out with his evidence that God is the author of sin and quotes,

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

As Calvin states,

Quote
Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts “peace” with “evil,” that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences. If he contrasted “righteousness” with “evil,” there would be some plausibility in their reasonings, but this is a manifest contrast of things that are opposite to each other. Consequently, we ought not to reject the ordinary distinction, that God is the author of the “evil” of punishment, but not of the “evil” of guilt.

John Calvin, Calvin's Commentaries: Isaiah, electronic ed., Logos Library System; Calvin's Commentaries, Is 45:7 (Albany, OR: Ages Software, 1998).


Quote
B57 additional proof that God is the Author of sin, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Job, a man with an anointed understanding said job 2: 10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? <span style="background-color:#FFFF00">In all this did not Job sin with his lips.</span>

How is God the author of something (i.e. sin) that Job did not even do? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" /> The other part of the phrase is explained above by Calvin. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Double predestination [Re: Wes] #29703
Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:12 PM
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C.D. Cole offers his opinion on this topic:

This is one of the most difficult questions in theology. Since God made everything good in the original creation, how did sin get started?


God made everthing good, in that everything served his purpose ! Sin got started , because God decreed it for His purpose, else it would not have got started.

Quote
How was a good creation thrown into rebellion against its Creator?
this was part of Gods redemptive plan , and predetermined counsel.

Quote
By whom and how was sin originated?


answer: rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Quote
Sin was not created by God. God created everything good
Again wrong, all things are Good from Gods eternal purpose and Good pleasure, that is one of the comforts of scriptures like rom 8 : 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

even sin in the lives of true belivers today is good, in that it keeps us focused not on ourselves but on the merits of christ. We continually are dependent upon the blood of the lamb which cleanseth us from all unrighteousness..It causes us to look away from ourselves and utter those words as paul, I have no confidence in the flesh.

Quote
Sin is not eternal; it had a beginning.
Ah you don`t say ! Everything had a beginning but God. Sin had it's begininng in God's designated time, according to His good pleasure and sovereign will.

Quote
Sin was not the necessary result of finiteness.
That is not true. Man could not have remained in that state , nor the angels , because that would have made them immutable , which means they were not subject to change and Only the Thrice Holy God is mutable. Even the heavens are mutable and they never sinned. ps 102: 25, 2625Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

Now Holy writ does set forth one exception, and that is the elect angels who did not leave their first estate. They appear to be the only created beings that will remain unchanged. But they are elect, special grace, and I believe they are elected in Christ for that grand privilege !

Quote
Sin had its origin in a principle of negation, which means that it is not the result of any positive force
Oh so wrong <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" /> It was created by the positive force of God`s decree. True, God in his intrinsic Holy nature, committed no act of iniquity, but to relegate anything, or occurance , or activity, or action , or anyone as not to emante from His sovereign good pleasure and decree is Nigh blashemy. It is written that God hardened pharoah heart! ex 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

ex 9: 12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

1 kgs 22; 23Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

To not see God`s positive decretive force behind mans sin is to ignore scripture truth...

Quote
So sin had its origin in the withholding of that grace necessary to sustain moral beings in a state of holiness. If God had not permitted sin there could have been no display of some of His most glorious attributes. Surely it is not too much to say that God permitted sin that He might overrule it "to the praise of the glory of His grace" (Eph 1:6).
Wow, God permitted sin only ?He decreed it,so He can demonstrate His overruling it and that for His glory. May he praised from all eternity..


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29704
Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:31 AM
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Beloved57 quotes Isaiah 45:7 and Job 2:10 thusly, emphasis mine:

Quote
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Job, a man with an anointed understanding said job 2: 10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? ... (42:11) Then came there unto him all his brethren ... and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him.


Taken at face value these verse certainly do suggest that God creates evil. But the use of the word evil in the KJV (instead of the words calamity, disaster, adversity, etc) does not suggest that God created sin! God does take credit in His word for every plague, earthquake, flood, and storm; as well as for "man made" disasters like war and slavery. But that is not the same thing as God originating evil!

May God forgive you!

Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29705
Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:26 AM
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Beloved57,

You have a very distorted view of God and sin. From reading your reply to my post it appears that you either didn't read all of my comments and the links I attached or you failed to comprehend them.

Quote
beloved57 said:

even sin in the lives of true belivers today is good, in that it keeps us focused not on ourselves but on the merits of christ.


I'm shocked by your quote above. To say that sin in our lives is good and helps us focus on the merits of Christ is ridiculous. Sin does not give light! Sin only serves to blind us and lead us astray. Sin actually keeps us focused on ourselves. Only grace through faith allows us to see and benefit from the merits of Christ.

I'd like to suggest that you go back to my previous reply and read the link that I added shortly after I wrote it. It dicusses Supralapsarianism and Infralapsarianism. Neither position supports what you believe but you may find it helpful if you are able to get your mind around it.


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Re: Double predestination [Re: Wes] #29706
Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:18 AM
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wes says[quote]I'm shocked by your quote above. To say that sin in our lives is good and helps us focus on the merits of Christ is ridiculous. [/quote] The inspired Apostle John says 1 jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. If for some wise and Holy reason God has ordained that a Saint is being harrased and overcome by sin in their life, fear not and look to thy Advocate..... Jesus Christ the righteous... Sin points me to my advocate wes :bananas:


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Re: Double predestination [Re: J_Edwards] #29707
Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:28 AM
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Je says
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While one would admit that the existence of sin in the universe is under the jurisdiction of God who is infinite in His wisdom, power, holiness, and justice, this does not make God sin’s author.


Then how did it get in Gods universe if God did not create it ?

according to rev 4: 11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29708
Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:24 PM
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beloved57 said:
Then how did it get in Gods universe if God did not create it?

It is known as "secondary causes". In this particular case, as you have already been told by several here, the created beings, both angelic and human brought about sin, i.e., sin is rebellion against God. Sin is not a "thing" but an action and/or state of being. Thus it is utterly impossible that God could create sin for to do so it would require that He rebel against Himself.

There are myriad examples one could give of this principle of truth where God created something and from that creation something else happens, for example, God created the basic sounds that comprise music. But one cannot say that God created "Heavy Metal" or "Jazz", etc. Man, using those things which God created and the communicable attributes he is endowed with in his creation creates various forms of music.

And over ALL things, which God Himself has created or which are the result of secondary causes, the Lord God providentially controls them according to His eternal counsel.

Got it? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


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Privation of the Good [Re: beloved57] #29709
Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:58 PM
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beloved57 said:
Je says
Quote
While one would admit that the existence of sin in the universe is under the jurisdiction of God who is infinite in His wisdom, power, holiness, and justice, this does not make God sin’s author.


Then how did it get in Gods universe if God did not create it ?

according to rev 4: 11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."


Augustine called it a privation of the good. As Greg Johnson states, Mani (Manichean cult) had taught that there were two eternal creator-Gods, one evil and one good—the evil God accounting for evil in the world, the good God accounting for goodness. Augustine wrote On the Nature of the Good to demonstrate that evil as a created thing does not exist. Since there is no evil thing in creation, an evil creator-God is irrational. Evil is not a thing, but a condition that good things have. God created all things good (Genesis 1), and evil is a condition they have when they have lost some of their initial goodness. Even Satan has no creative power, but is himself just a fallen creature.

Sex, for example, is a good gift of God. Adultery is the perversion of a good thing by robbing it of the good context for which it was designed. People are not evil in the sense that a human liver is a bad thing. Rather, humans are evil insofar as they have fallen from the condition in which God first designed them. Evil, then, is not a thing. Evil is a lack. Evil is a negative. Evil is a privation of the good.

This is even how human language has developed. Injustice, for example, assumes the prior existence of justice. Injustice is a lack of justice. Immorality is a privation of morality, unkindness a lack of kindness. Sin, biblically speaking, is a failure to achieve God’s standard of perfection, falling short of our design, a “missing the mark”. R.C. Sproul makes the observation well: “Our language betrays the fact that to think about and conceptualize evil, we must do it against the backdrop of the good” (Reason to Believe, 127).

Thus a philosopher like Descartes in the seventeenth century could answer the skeptics who argued that if God exists, he must be evil. Descartes agreed that there could be nothing in the effect (creation) that was not also in the cause (God), but added that evil is not a thing, but a lack. The creation’s now having less goodness does not require a reality of evil within God’s nature. It only requires that beings with free will [in the Reformed sense of the phrase] chose to seek a lesser good than the good for which they were created—a seeking of lesser goods that offends God and is therefore called evil.

Geisler states,

Quote
The theist responds that evil is not a thing or substance. Rather it is a lack or privation of a good thing that God made. Evil is a deprivation of some particular good. The essence of this position is summarized:

1. God created every substance.
2. Evil is not a substance (but a privation in a substance).
3. Therefore, God did not create evil.

Evil is not a substance but a corruption of the good substances God made. Evil is like rust to a car or rot to a tree. It is a lack in good things, but it is not a thing in itself. Evil is like a wound in an arm or moth-holes in a garment. It exists only in another but not in itself. It is important to note that a privation is not the same as mere absence. Sight is absent in a stone as well as in a blind person. But the absence of sight in the stone is not a privation. Absence of something that ought to be there. Since the stone by nature ought not to see, it is not deprived of sight, as is the blind man.

Evil, then is a privation of some good that ought to be there. It is not a mere negation. To say that evil is not a thing, but a lack in things, is not to claim that it is not real. Evil is a real lack in good things, as the blind person knows only so well. Evil is not a real substance, but it is a real privation in good substances. It is not an actual entity but a real corruption in an actual entity. …

Classical theists described things in terms of their four causes: (1) efficient; (2) final; (3) formal, and (4) material. A human being has God as the efficient cause, God’s glory and their good as final cause, a soul as formal cause and a body as the material cause. However, since evil is not a substance, it has no formal cause, and its material cause is a good substance.

Efficient Cause- Free choice [in the Reformed sense of the phrase]
Final Cause- None. Evil is the lack of order.
Formal Cause- None. Evil is the privation of form.
Material Cause- A good substance

The efficient cause of moral evil is free choice [in the Reformed sense of the phrase], not directly but indirectly. There is no purpose (final cause) of evil. It is lack of proper order to the good end. Evil has no formal cause of its own. Rather, it is the destruction of form in another. Its material cause is a good but not its own. It exists only in a good thing as the corruption of it.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Double predestination [Re: Pilgrim] #29710
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pilgrim says
Quote
It is known as "secondary causes".
Secondary cause are created by God to serve His purpose <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" /> All things are created by God and for His Glory. The main purpose and goal for creation was inorder that God through Christ would be Glorified. Sin was and is Part of the outworking of that purpose. I have already stated that God's creation of evil did not emanate from within His Being of Essence , but From His Sovereign will and Good pleasue. That comprises everthing single thing. Molocues , atoms , insects , good , bad , pretty , ugly, deaf, dummb, beauty EVERYTHING !! To not grasp this simple Concept of God, is to suppose that something occured or happened outside the relm Of sovereign perogative ! Thats scarey, Thats blasphemous. To suppose that God merely permitted evil as it was contrary to His original purpose as constituting every thing Good, Makes God responding to the creature, when in fact all things in creation are responding to the perfect Sovereign predetmined Plan of God. Simply said God choose to reveal His Glory through the Redemptive Love of Christ for His elect, and Hence everthing proceeding from that purpose to that end, sin and mainly sin inclided!

R.C sproul says in a statement under foreordination to reprobation
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Theoretically He could know of a future act without ordaining it,
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />

That is a blasphemous statement right there. Dont appeal to me with all these guys, please use scripture. I have read these guys before some of you have. mostly all your reference material I see you recommending out to folks, I have already read , some even many years ago..

some thing elese to ponder upon. God creates every human being right ? Wether that person is elect or reprobated, God is the creator from the womb and in the womb ! Notice what paul says about those in an unregenerated state :

eph 5:8
8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Notice that he said you were darkness , not in darkness ! God creates the reprobated.

notice what David says about Gods creation of natural child birth

ps 139
14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Well I know some of you are going to piously say, he is speaking about David or even say Christ and The virgin birth, but it does not matter, God is Sovereign in all things and with everyone, and for this purpose we exist and was created for, His Sovereign pleasure...


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29711
Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:50 PM
Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:50 PM
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B-57,

Quote

Dont appeal to me with all these guys, please use scripture. I have read these guys before some of you have.


So, I guess we're not supposed to read "these guys" we're only supposed to listen to the wondrous exegesis of B-57 Alone.

Why didn't you just come out and say it: "I've already forgotten more than the rest of you know!"

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29712
Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:58 PM
Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:58 PM
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Quote
B57 quotes R.C. Sproul saying,

R.C sproul says in a statement under foreordination to reprobation

Theoretically He could know of a future act without ordaining it,

B57, WHERE is the term AUTHOR in Sproul’s statement? There is a difference between being the AUTHOR of something and ORDAINING something. I can ORDAIN that all heretics will be banned from this board, however, one of the other moderators in fact may be the actual AUTHOR of the banning. Now if you would have read the rest of R.C. Sproul’s article you would have discovered a very interesting paragraph or three:

Quote
This distortion of positive-positive predestination clearly makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly coerces man to do. Such a view is indeed a monstrous assault on the integrity of God. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers. …

If God, when He is decreeing reprobation, does so in consideration of the reprobate's being already fallen, then He does not coerce him to sin. To be reprobate is to be left in sin, not pushed or forced to sin. If the decree of reprobation were made without a view to the fall, then the objection to double predestination would be valid and God would be properly charged with being the author of sin. But Reformed theologians have been careful to avoid such a blasphemous notion. Berkouwer states the boundaries of the discussion clearly: “God's decree of reprobation, given in light of the fall, is a decree to justice, not injustice. In this view the biblical a priori that God is neither the cause nor the author of sin is safeguarded.

Though this writer favors the infralapsarian view along the lines developed by Turrettini, it is important to note that both views see election and reprobation in light of the fall and avoid the awful conclusion that God is the author of sin.

Double Predestination by R. C. Sproul

One wonders why you did not quote as Paul Harvey use to say, "The rest of the story?" Were you being purposely misleading or did you just forget? Must you use deception to make your points? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

Though I am sure Pilgrim will reply to you, you state Eph 5:8 as a defense and then comment ever so briefly saying, “Notice that he said you were darkness , not in darkness ! God creates the reprobated.” But, whom is Paul speaking about; pre-fall man or post-fall man? Post-fall man of course. Man is in darkness because of sin for which he is responsible (see my post on Privation of the Good).


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Double predestination [Re: knoxandcalvin] #29713
Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:35 PM
Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:35 PM
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beloved57 Offline
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A very good article that agree's with my position of all things being created by God , wether it be good or evil !

http://www.rmiweb.org/other/problemevil.pdf


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29714
Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:04 PM
Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:04 PM
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Posts: 2,615
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J_Edwards Offline
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Cheung is a radical. He claims, "It is with this same mindset, and the same willing to admit error, that I insist that there is no possibility that my present apologetic method (among other things) can be defeated or refuted, either by reason or by revelation." In his Systematic Theology he explains that the imago Dei is not physical but only rational since God is not physical. May we ask him, what of Jesus? In addition, he ascribes to Scripturalism.

He is all over the net casting his net of unusual theology. For more read the articles at: Papers by Aquascum. If this is the best you have B57 <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,
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