The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum General Doctrine Questions

Hi,

I'm new but very happy to be here with like-minded Christians. I was posting on another Christian board, but my convictions were not too well received - but I had respectful exchanges, nonetheless.

Here's a few questions.

Does somebody need to believe in election, predestination, human depravity, limited atonement, etc. to be saved - or can you be saved without accepting those doctrines, I'm guessing you can't but I simply don't know.

Also, regarding Assurance:

Is it common for those whmo are 'truely' saved to be insecure and have doubts and feelings of unworthiness regarding their election.

Thank You - and once again I'm glad to be here!

Sincerely,

Anthony

AJC . . . Welcome to The Highway Discussion Board.

Well, that question has been asked many times over here. There is a relative consensus as to the answer although as you might expect, there is some disagreement(s) among the members due to the wide diversity of them. It's a difficult question to answer for several reasons. What needs to be established first is what one means by "believe"? What I am referring to is "Assensus" vs. "Fiducia", i.e., an outward and/or intellectual agreement with those doctrines versus a heart-felt embracing of them which influences one's life. This is critically important when speaking of one's eternal salvation. One can profess to believe in Christ but not be united to Christ by a true living faith which has been wrought by the Holy Spirit. So it is today and always has been the case that there are many "professors" but few "possessors".

Okay, so let's look at just one of these doctrines, which are in fact simply 5 inseparable parts of a whole. Let's consider "Total Depravity" and note that this doctrine in its most basic teaching says that man is spiritual dead, hates God and all that is good and is totally incapable of even desiring God's salvation in Christ. Unless God the Spirit regenerates a sinner's soul, creating a new nature which has a God-ward disposition, implanting faith in the heart and a yearning for Christ, that person will never desire to be reconciled to God so as to repent and believe on Jesus Christ. Now, someone who doesn't truly believe the teaching of this doctrine will of necessity believe that a sinner (he/she) is not spiritually dead but rather has a natural ability, whether it is a general ability given to all or one inherent by nature. Thus a person's salvation ultimately rests in one's own exercising of the will (aka: decision for Christ, etc.) and not 100% on grace, "Sola Gratia).

So, IF one truly believes that their salvation rests upon their "decision" I must conclude that they cannot be saved. However, there are some who hold to a form of synergism (God and man working together) who hold to this unbiblical teaching as head knowledge but in their hearts they know that their salvation was all of God by grace through faith in Christ. These individuals will eventually come to embrace these infamous "Five Points of Calvinism" by the Spirit's leading.

I've written a short article that includes a chart showing the difference between these two views and how they effect one's salvation. You can read it here: By Grace Alone.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/yep.gif" alt="" /> you bet it is. In fact, such feelings of unworthiness are a mark of indwelling, active grace. Assurance is not a static thing but one that comes and goes depending upon circumstances, especially dependent upon if one is living in sin, being disobedient toward God, etc. However, it is not healthy nor typical for a true Christian to have no assurance whatsoever.

You may benefit from reading some of the articles on The Highway on the subject of Assurance here: Praxis - The Christian Life under the heading of "Sanctification". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bigglasses.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Thanks Pilgrim!

I'm reading a book called Spiritual Depression (I don't know if you read it), I'm only about half way through and the book seems pretty fundamentally sound but the author was making a point that many believers are miserable and stuck in feelings of unworthiness and harping on past sins while they should really be praising God for delivering them and washing away their sins for Jesus' sake. Based on your initial response - I guess you would say that the true beliver experiences a little of both - moments of joy, peace and quiet hope and moments of doubt & frustration - I guess it's all part of the inner warfare! I'll read those links when I get a chance - thanks again Pilgrim!

IF the book you are reading is, Spiritual Depression, by Martyn Lloyd-Jones, it's a goodie! Perhaps one of the most indepth and solidly written books on Assurance is, The Quest For Full Assurance, by Dr. Joel Beeke (Banner of Truth).

One of the drawbacks of coming here, not that it is really something negative <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, is that many of us are well-read and thus you are going to get LOTS of referrals to articles and books. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Joel Beeke - He used to be one of the ministers of the church I currently attend before I met my wife, was introduced to Reformed doctrine and became a member (I used to be Catholic) - I'll have to check it out!

I just wanted to share what I posted on another Christian board in my attempt to explain (mostly to skeptical Catholics)the true nature of grace and predestination - what do you guys think, is it Biblically & Doctirnally Sound?

A case for Grace & Predesintation by AJC-

1) For me the clincher is that it is not plausible that every single person who has walked the face of the earth throughout the history of the world has had the knowledge and opportunity to make a choice to accept or reject Jesus - I would say there are whole non-Christian religions/cultures that do not have at their disposal the means of saving grace (not even talking about any kind of internal call, I'm speaking of the external call). You have the Muslims - God may very well pluck some individuals from that group and provide the means for salvation - but this idea that they all have a choice to make is borderline propostorous.

2) God has numbered all the hairs on our heads and we all agree he has foreknowledge of the future. And God has permitted all things to take place and transpire according to His infalliable will - it is easy to conclude that His foreknowledge is, in fact, a series of permissable events that unfold according to His will. So if GOd is the origin and governor of all things and there are no ACCIDENTS but all things are foreknown by God and made permissable or are included that they may take place - isn't salvation part of a fixed process in which God knew if we would respond to his Word (of course we only respond because God prepares our wills-see #5) and allowed it to go down as He foresaw it would (God set up the circumstances that enabled His own to be drawn to Him). If GOd is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient - this is the best case scenario for free will!

3) So-called universal passages put in perspective - and understanding that in His Word God is communicating what we must do, how we must follow and how we are accountable regardless of our ability - He is within his rights to hold us to pre-fall standards of keeping the law perfectly. When we realize that in word, thought and deed we cannot obey God as we should (human depravity) we flea to Jesus, our Lord and Savior, for mediation! God also communicates His promises to the elect! Also we have His 'decree' - in which His justice against sin is satisfied and His 'desire' - in which the fact that He is benelovent and takes no pleasure in the perdition of the wicked is revealed.

4) The passages that highlight GOd's sovereignty: His purpose, counsel & will made known before the foundation of the world - included in that is the Foreordination of the death and resurrection of His Only Begotton Son. The passages that speak of our depravity and dead state due to our sins and trespasses. Other notable key words found in scriptures: Predestination, election, draw, adoption, inheritance, etc.

5) If we are spiritually dead due to our fallen natures we do not possess the ability to do anything that is spiritually good - we need the light switch turned on, our spiritual eyes opened, the truth revealed, and to be given a new heart before we are able to make a True, Lasting choice to accept God's gift of grace in which the Holy SPirit fills us and we are lifted out of our dead states into a life of service and repentance to God!

6) Based on my research of NewAdvent.com the concept of Negative
Reprobation is Biblical while Positive Reprobation is faulty and makes God the author of sin.

I have a question - about 2 seperate verses, I don't recall where they are to be found - where there is reference to the souls in prison as well as the reference to Abraham's side. Here we see both a Hades and Paradise referred to that many believe existed before Jesus died and opened the gates of Paradise. Obviously, there were exceptions like Elijah going straight to heaven but a general consensus amongst many Christians is that the OT belivers did not go directly to heaven but had to spend time in a 'waiting room' until Jesus came and opened the doors to heaven - I don't believe this but many do, what do you guys think and how do we explain the verses that refer to 'souls in prison' and 'Abraham's side'

AJC,

I believe you are referring to Jesus' parable in Luke 16:19-31. First of all, this is a parable, i.e., it is to be understood as an extended simile and not a {metaphor). In a parable/simile the objects used in it are not to be construed as being one-for-one, i.e., exact representations of reality.

Now, in this parable we see two figures; Lazarus and the rich man who represent two groups of individuals. Lazarus represents believers and the rich man unbelievers. There are also two "places" represented; heaven and hell where each of the two respective groups reside after death. Another important truth is that "heaven" is not the final destination of the saints, but rather a "waiting place" until the consummation. The point of the parable is that the situation for unbelievers (aka: reprobate in this case) is unfathomable torment from which they desire to escape by any means. Secondly, even with the torment they are having to endure, they are still obstinate in their rejection of God, Christ and the only means for reconciliation with God (salvation). And lastly, that means of reconciliation is to be found in the Scriptures; which testify of Christ and the need for sinners to repent of their sins and cast all their trust and hope upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, the answer to your question is, the saints do indeed go directly to heaven (cf. 2Cor 5:8; Ps 15:17; 73:23; Matt 25:21, 23; Rev 6:9-11; 7:14-17) to be with the Lord and there await the Great White Throne Judgment and thereafter they shall dwell on the New Earth.

In His grace,

Pilgrim-

thanks! I appreciate your knowledgeable, insightful feedback.

AJC

I quickly checked all the replies and it seems to me that no one mentioned the Canons of Dordt. This old church document deals explicitly with election and assurance. Go to eg. Canons of Dordt

Our reformed church fathers wrestled with the same problems!

Johan

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/applause.gif" alt="" /> Also I would like to recommend a commentary on the canons "The Voice of Our Fathers" by Homer C. Hoeksema where he deals with the subject of assurance <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Hi Pilgrim!

I just read an article from Beeke about Assurance & Faith, I think it was derived or taken from the book you recommended - I was impressed! Between that and the book Spirtiual Depression I am confronted with the concern that the NRC is so good in teaching Human Depravity that it's kind of leaving it's members there - I don't want to be left there fixated on my own inability & depravity - I want to be able to praise and glory the Lord Jesus for washing my sins away!!!

I wrote my minister my concerns and even sent a copy of the Beeke article - I'm anxious to see how he responds.

P.S. I still, however, defend the caution against embracing worldliness and have noticed that Beeke wrote a book warning against worldliness coming into chruch and home - but I do feel the avoidance of worldliness should come from the heart and not legalism.