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Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: Peter] #36513
Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:15 PM
Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:15 PM
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Boanerges,

(my last post as second part to a partial response)

I realize that there are conflicting tallies, and biased summations of what the Religious beliefs were of the Founding Fathers. *The reason I brought the topic up was mainly the term ‘self-evident’ and to point out the Anti-Calvinistic language and philosophy represented. Below is additional information and quotes from (some) influential first Americans concerning their religious views.


Quote

http://chalicechick.blogspot.com/2007/05/more-on-founding-fathers.html

Benjamin Franklin
in a letter to William Short, Thomas Jefferson wrote:

"The Presbyterian clergy are the loudest, most intolerant of all sects; the most tyrannical and ambitious, ready at the work of the law-giver, if such a word could be obtained, to put their torch to the pile and to rekindle in this virgin hemisphere the flame in which their oracle, Calvin, consumed the poor Servetus, because he could not subscribe to the proposition of Calvin, that magistrates have a right to exterminate all heretics to the Calvinistic Creed! They pant to re-establish by law that holy inquisition which they can now only infuse into public opinion."



Quote

www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

George Washington

To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."

George Washington was a Freemason

After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."

Thomas Jefferson

Even most Christians do not consider Jefferson a Christian. In many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom:

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."


John Adams

Adams, a Unitarian, flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination."
In his, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America"[b]

[1787-1788], John Adams wrote:

[b]"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."


James Madison

Called the father of the Constitution, Madison had no conventional sense of Christianity. In 1785, Madison wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."


Benjamin Franklin

...His Autobiography revels his skepticism, "My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist."


In an essay on "Toleration," Franklin wrote:

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England."

Dr. Priestley, an intimate friend of Franklin, wrote of him:

"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

Back to Topic Please? [Re: Kathy] #36514
Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:31 PM
Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:31 PM
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I suggest a new thread if you want to talk about the religious leanings of the founders of your nation. Please.

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Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: Kathy] #36515
Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:37 PM
Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:37 PM
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Quote
And this agreement is some type of decision that man is responsible to make?


Man is responsible to love and obey God, but incapable because utterly unwilling because totally enslaved to sin. Man has a will, he is able to exercise it according to the desires of his heart and the limitations of his nature.

Quote
I especially think that Calvinism replaces, confuses and substitutes the ‘true’ Gospel call for sincere repentance, faith and trust with ‘submission’ to doctrine/portrait of “God’s character” aka ‘the Gospel according to Calvinism’ (And I think it’s defamation of His character and creation).


Okay, then, what is the "true" Gospel, according to Kathy? Opposing Calvinism isn't enough to define your views.

Quote
According to Calvinism, the ‘good news’ for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing, and whether or not you decide/choose to agree (submit in humility- a work) that you are a miserable puppet creature doesn’t matter one iota as to your eternal destiny.


The "good news" for man is that God has sent Christ into the world to save His people from their sins. This salvation is offered freely to all who will come. As I explained above, however, no one will desire to come because all are enslaved to sin. Therefore God must change their hearts and instill in them the desire to come. It simply is not true that whether you "decide" or "agree" doesn't matter. We are not "miserable puppet creatures." Your choices do matter, but you will not choose rightly unless God transforms your heart. Those whom God chooses to transform are "His elect," and they will come to him--freely. Those whom God does not choose to transform will never desire to come to Him, but will live forever in rebellion against Him, and will receive the wrath justly due to them.

Quote
and submit to a different God, who can’t be trusted, because of his ‘secretive will’ and double-speak.


The unregenerate cannot trust God, that is true. Like you, when exposed to the truth without being born-again, they proclaim that this God can't be trusted and is deceptive--they fall for exactly the lie of the serpent in the Garden. "Did God really say . . . ? You will not surely die, for God knows . . ." And so they confirm themselves in their own rebellion, declaring that this God is not "worthy" of their worship.

Quote
Yet, when man sins... it is against his neighbor, friend, wife, business associate, stranger...


"Against You, You only, have I sinned, and done what is evil in Your sight, so that You may be justified in Your words and blameless in Your judgment" (Ps. 51:4).

Quote
and think that this matters more than making one’s priority to be defending or submitting to a doctrine, for doctrine’s sake, in which man selfishly focuses on whether or not he’s a saved puppet


"Whoever believe in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (Jh. 3:18).


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: Kathy] #36516
Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:45 PM
Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:45 PM
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Quote
That is called a “Straw man” statement, and is not close to hardly what Arminianism portrays as ‘the Gospel’. On the other hand, Calvinism clearly does have one sole focus... and it clearly does live and breathe to add a disclaimer to John 3:16. And that is not a Straw Man argument.


Not a straw man because you say so, right? Because you've presented no argument, only bare assertion. Your opposition to Calvinism is perfectly clear, but it will not suffice for you to make accusations against Calvinism as "argument" while accusing William of presenting a straw man!

Quote
It was Augustine who developed the doctrine of Original Sin...


Try Paul: "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12).

Quote
No... I do not believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, as there are facts and evidence to the contrary.


Just like there were "facts and evidence" for your conspiracy theories about the Jews and Noahides? You haven't got a leg to stand on, much less when speaking about God. You've only ever demonstrated one thing in your posts to this forum in regard to God: lamentable ignorance. If you do not care to learn the truth, so be it, but then why continue your involvement here, after so long an absence? To what purpose?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: Kathy] #36517
Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:49 PM
Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:49 PM
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Quote
I am basing my conclusions on much observation, and a term used in the Declaration of Independence ‘self evident’ which went on in an entirely anti-Calvinist manner. And likewise, in that manner the promise that this nation’s government would not persecute me for not believing the same as you... something of a victory that took millennia against the mentality of the hordes (and the Grace of God – I believe) to establish. That is in spite of the fact that a few of the founding Fathers were Calvinists... The language is anti-Calvinist, largely Deist. (Which BTW, does not claim to be the Word of God).


Ah, so your idol is this idea of America!


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: CovenantInBlood] #36518
Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:06 PM
Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:06 PM
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Quote
Quote
Kathy:
It was Augustine who developed the doctrine of Original Sin...

Kyle:
Try Paul: "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12).


Paul, with a little help from his friends:

Moses: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5, ESV)

David: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5, ESV)

Solomon: "there is no one who does not sin" (1 Kings 8:46, ESV)

Isaiah: "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you" (Isaiah 64:6-7, ESV)

Jeremiah: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9, ESV)

Jesus: "from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person." (Mark 7:21-23, ESV)

James: "whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it" (James 2:10, ESV)

Peter: "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God" (1 Peter 3:18, ESV)


In Christ,
Paul S
Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: Kathy] #36519
Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:55 PM
Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:55 PM
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Kathy

I believe this conversation has gone off topic.
Although it is true that most of us on this site believe that Calvinism is the true Gospel. Since the topic is TSN where teachers like Hagin, Copeland, Hinn and many others preach. I would go as far as to say that the false gospel that these teachers teach isn't even Arminianism, for most knowledgeable Arminians would reject what these teachers teach.
Though it is true that these false teachers have more in common with Arminianism than Calvinism and may have their roots in Arminianism. I think they have gone so far away from those roots that they are not even recognizable.

So I believe the argument should not be Calvinism vs. Arminianism, but (since this is a Calvinist site) Calvinism vs. Word of Faith teaching.

Do you believe Word of Faith preachers teach the Word of God, or not?

Tom

Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: William] #36520
Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:53 AM
Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:53 AM
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Quote
William said:

Quote
Kathy said:
. . . According to Calvinism, the ‘good news’ for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing. . .



Williams <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/my2cents.gif" alt="" />

According to Arminianism the "good news" for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing. We are the master and God is the puppet. We can handle Him and use Him as we will and when and where we will.



[color:"0000FF"]But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
John 12:37-41

.
[/color]



Kathy, I know you are being bombarded from all sides nevertheless I feel in good company for holding to a straw man statement but thank you anyway.

In Peace
William


Quote


Calvin said:


“Now while many arguments are advanced on both sides, let our conclusion be to stand astonished with Paul at so great a mystery; and amidst the clamor of petulant tongues let us not be ashamed to exclaim with him, ’O man, who art thou that repliest against God?’ For, as Augustine justly contends, “it is acting a most perverse part to set up the measure of human justice as the standard by which to measure the justice of God.”

History of the Christian Church
By Philip Schaff pg.460






Now when many notions are adduced on both sides, let this be our conclusion: to tremble with Paul at so deep a mystery; but, if froward tongues clamor, not to be ashamed of this exclamation of his: “Who are you, O man, to argue with God?” (Romans 9:20). For as Augustine truly contends, they who measure divine justice by the standard of human justice are acting perversely.

Institutes of the Christian Religion vol. 3
Battles Translation (1960) pg. 479


Finally, after all that has been adduced on this side and on that, let it be our conclusion to feel overawed with Paul at the great depth, and if petulant tongues will still murmur, let us not be ashamed to join in his exclamation, “Nay, but, O man, who art thou that replies against God?” (Romans 9:20.) Truly does Augustine maintain that it is perverse to measure divine by the standard of human justice,

Institutes of the Christian Religion
Beveridge Translation (1800) pg. 1096

.
Quote


[color:"0000FF"]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Romans 9:20[/color]



.




Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: William] #36521
Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:06 PM
Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:06 PM
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William

I may be wrong about this, but something tells me that if Kathy became convinced that Calvinism, was the true Gospel, she would probably reject God entirely.
I hope I am wrong about that.

Tom

Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: Paul_S] #36522
Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:40 AM
Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:40 AM
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Quote

Paul_S said:
David: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5, ESV)


David also wrote Psalm 14 by the Spirit of God:

Quote

Psalm 14 [NKJV]

1 The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.

2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call on the LORD?
5 There they are in great fear,
For God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You shame the counsel of the poor,
But the LORD is his refuge.

7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD brings back the captivity of His people,
Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.



Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: Pilgrim] #36523
Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:59 AM
Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:59 AM
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germany
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Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
evangelist said:
No but they control better those who are speaching the <span style="background-color:yellow">real gospel of the bible</span> and the will of God. <emphasis mine: Pilgrim>

Evangelist,

Why it is you don't seem to comprehend the seriousness of what everyone, including myself have been trying to convey to you I can only guess. But what is apparently true is you just don't get it!! And just what is it that you don't get? Well, it is that this "real gospel of the Bible" which you claim the TBN preachers and followers believe is not the "real gospel of the Bible" at all but something alien to it. The Gospel which the Christian Church has taught for centuries upon centuries is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than the "gospel" which those you hold in high regard believe and teach. Sooooo, either you and they are holding to the truth or the historic Christian church holds the truth. Someone is seriously wrong. And I emphasize seriously, because the errors are such that to hold to those errors means damnation. This is not my opinion but it is rather what Paul wrote:

Quote
Galatians 1:6-9 (KJV) "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Do you understand what Paul wrote there? He said there is only ONE Gospel. And that ONE Gospel is that which he and the other Apostles and Disciples preached and taught. ANY other gospel is no Gospel at all. There is no room for a wishy-washy tolerance when it comes to the Gospel. You either have it right.. or you have it wrong. And, if you have it wrong, then Paul says "may you be accursed (anathema), i.e., cast out of the Church excommunicated, deemed as an unbeliever and/or a heretic. This is serious stuff.

Again, the judgment Paul pronounces is NOT based upon how one looks, how much money one makes or doesn't make, how large a following or fancy a building one erects, how many people are allegedly blessed, how happy one is, or any such thing. The sentence of being accursed falls upon those who hold to and preach/teach different DOCTRINE.... another Gospel. Again Paul writes:

Quote
2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (KJV) "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him]."

Paul's concern here is identical to that which he wrote to the churches in Galatia. The issue is DOCTRINAL.... the Gospel. That which is not the same as that which Paul and the other Apostles and Disciples preached is utterly and totally rejected. It isn't enough to simply speak the word, "Jesus", for there is only ONE Jesus of the Bible. So one must ask, "Jesus who?" and "What did this Jesus do?", etc. Once again, those of the TBN group preach and teach a different Jesus than the Jesus that the historic Christian Church has proclaimed for centuries. Someone is wrong. And whoever is wrong, leading multitudes of people astray, and is liable to judgment along with all those who follow them.

Would you PLEASE take the short time required to read this: What is the Gospel?. Consider what the author has written and then compare that to what you and all those belonging to TBN and similar groups are teaching. At least you should be able to see that there is a black & white difference between the two. Then, it is your responsibility to determine from Scripture, which group is in error. Your eternal destiny hinges greatly upon your decision. I would hope that is worth some of your time.

In His grace,


I see no difference with my ministry as with many of those from TBN, as we support each other, in one faith , the good gospel of Christ , and being one body, and as we believe together in the same baptism.


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: straw] #36524
Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:23 AM
Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:23 AM
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Quote
straw said:
Quote
evangelist said:
straw

Shouldn't we use spiritual discernmemnt on what is true or not?

1Jo:2:26: These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jo:2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I think our God like spirit in us would tell us the truth and what is the truth so we can't be decieved.


Dear brother,

This is a VERY good point. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide us into ALL TRUTH. To sad when we do not allow the Holy Spirit to be as intimately involved in our lives as He was in the EARLY CHURCH. We are prone to stray, but we can have this confidence that the deposit, this seal of His Spirit in us, will IN THE END, make us a beautiful BRIDE for our KING of KINGS, and LORD of LORDS; JESUS CHRIST the LORD.

NB: Just a point! The Scriptures point us to Christ, and Christ points us to the Scriptures. The danger is when we attempt to read the Scriptures by a system and do not let Him lead us and guide us, and comfort and teach and correct and instruct us from these Scriptures. Not only does He do this, but He has set ministries in the body...like evangelists...and they need teachers....and so the body needs each part...other wise slits...I mean splits... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

And one last thing... The Holy Spirit also can minister to us through books and music and well, I guess He can even use a donkey, if we are filled with our own madness...am I a donkey...Hey Benny...I hope you are listening...(you have to remember that when things are not done 'in order' and certain rogue elements get in, you know what I mean, then it's time to call in the heavy artillery...REMEMBER..JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN WITH THE HOUSE OF GOD...it is SCARY, but God is raising up His people as a HOLY NATION, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, that we might show forth HIS PURITY AND HOLINESS to the world. So sometimes a REBUKE will come and pray that above the noise and shouting they are listening to the voice of GOD, through HIS servants. Pray. What does worry me is if those who are BIBLE ONLY, or SPIRIT only are not listening...if GOD himself will visit them ? We so need to help one another on this road, to many pointing fingers at the other...BIBLE ONLY help SPIRIT only and we might have a united front against the ADVERSITY who is messing with this world big time...WAR! ... repentance, armour, prayer ... then all together COME LORD JESUS!

Salute,


I don't think Benny Hinn would waste his time on a debate board just because of two or three people going against him , when he has millions on his side and support his belief , and ministry.
TBN mention that there will always be thousands who will sa TBN preach another gospel, but they are not afraid, because no weapon will prosper against them anyways.
There is more for these great awesome tv broadcast tha thos e against, so they already are winning the will of God.


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: evangelist] #36525
Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:47 AM
Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 17
maine
J
jaf Offline
Plebeian
jaf  Offline
Plebeian
J
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 17
maine
evangelist,
The people on the highway are sincerely trying to help you. The people on tbn are 1)trying to rob you of your money.For this is their "god". 2)they being of their father the devil seek to rob you of your very soul. It is indeed sad and tragic that you haven't been able to discern the truth. I have read all that you have posted and all that has been posted in an effort to help you. It appears that you do not have "ears to hear". The Scriptures instruct us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. Please,I beseech you to take the counsel of those who've responded to your posts VERY SERIOUSLY. Pray that God would grant you wisdom and discernment. You have not because you ask not. jaf

Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: evangelist] #36526
Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:46 PM
Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,897
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,897
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
evangelist says:
Quote
I see no difference with my ministry as with many of those from TBN, as we support each other, in one faith , the good gospel of Christ , and being one body, and as we believe together in the same baptism.


Are you aware that you basically said you believe a different gospel than what has been taught through out history by people from Paul, to Augustine, to Calvin to Sproul?

Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio [Re: Tom] #36527
Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:07 PM
Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,854
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,854
NH, USA
Quote
Tom said:
Are you aware that you basically said you believe a different gospel than what has been taught through out history by people from Paul, to Augustine, to Calvin to Sproul?

Tom,

I seriously doubt that this man has even heard of Augustine, Calvin or Sproul and more so, he couldn't care less who they were or what they taught. He is a captive of the Evil One who has blinded his eyes, dulled his hearing, disabled his ability to think and hardened his heart to the great truths of Christ and the salvation He merited for His own.

Quote
Jeremiah 14:15-16 (ASV) "Therefore thus saith Jehovah concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land: By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed. And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them-them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them."

Matthew 23:27-32 (ASV) "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but inwardly ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous, and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers."

Matthew 15:13-14 (ASV) "But he answered and said, Every plant which my heavenly Father planted not, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they are blind guides. And if the blind guide the blind, both shall fall into a pit."

Only a mighty and sovereign work of God can open this man's eyes to the truth that has been set before him. At present, these precious truths are worthless and incomprehensible. May the Lord take pity upon him as He did Lydia and opened her heart and granted her repentance unto life.

In His grace,


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