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Re: Predestination [Re: lacknothing] #37714
Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:53 PM
Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,853
NH, USA
Pilgrim Online content

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Quote
lacknothing said:
Why? If someone is "elect" why would they have to hear the preaching of the Gospel? Is that some kind of prerequisite?

And what does Scripture say? I provided several passages which show the absolute necessity of one hearing (reading) the Gospel in order to be saved. It is God's ordained means of calling sinners to Christ unto salvation. As Paul wrote, "it [the Gospel] is the power of God unto salvation" (Rom 1:16).

ALL human beings are under the judgment and wrath of God. All human beings are guilty before God having had Adam's guilt imputed to them. All human beings are born with a corrupt nature. Thus, through the hearing/reading of the Gospel, the means God has chosen to use to save sinners, the Holy Spirit works regeneration in the hearts of those predestinated making the able to hear the truth, repent and believe upon Christ.

Quote
Acts 16:14 (ASV) "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul."

Acts 18:8-11 (ASV) "And Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized. And the Lord said unto Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak and hold not thy peace: for I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to harm thee: for I have much people in this city. And he dwelt [there] a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them."

What God has foreordained in eternity must come to pass in time. The Lord Christ was ordained to walk this earth and die for all those for whom the Father gave him. But His coming and death didn't come to pass in eternity but in time when the "fullness of time had come".

Quote
Galatians 4:3-5 (ASV) "So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the rudiments of the world: but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, that he might redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."

Ephesians 1:9-12 (KJV) "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Predestination [Re: lacknothing] #37715
Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:46 PM
Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:46 PM
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The Bronx, NY
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Quote
lacknothing asks:
Why? If someone is "elect" why would they have to hear the preaching of the Gospel? Is that some kind of prerequisite?


lacknothing,

In order to make a point, allow me to shift gears here for a minute and move from God's control over the sphere of Salvation to his control over the sphere of Creation.

Without knowing anything about you, I can confidently state that there was a moment in time, probably several decades ago now, before which you did not exist and after which you did exist.

I am sure you would agree.

Let's call that moment in time "Point X".

I can also confidently state that prior to Point X you--being non-existent--did not exercise any ability to choose at all, but since Point X you have indeed exercised your ability to make choices, according to your nature, among the options open to you.

I am sure you will agree with that as well.

Now my question for you to at least ponder, and hopefully respond to here as well, is:

Lacknothing, do you now exist because, prior to Point X, you chose to exist?

If you answer in the negative--as I am sure you will--here are 2 follow-ups:

Did God choose for you to exist?

and

Was it proper for God to have used human agents--your parents--to bring about his sovereign choice for you to exist?


In Christ,
Paul S
Re: Predestination [Re: CovenantInBlood] #37716
Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:55 PM
Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:55 PM
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maine
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jaf Offline
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maine
Lacknothing, You are correct in saying that FAITH & REPENTANCE are necessary for SALVATION. Where you do err is in "placing the cart before the horse". Where re-generation occurs, the resurrection of the "Dead in the trespasses and sins" man (Ephesians 2:1 and following) FAITH and REPENTANCE always follows. Not only is saving FAITH the gift of God as has been shown in numerous posts on this subject but, REPENTANCE is also the gift of God (II Tim.2:25;Acts 5:31). If God does not grant it, no one would TRULY REPENT. Salvation is of the Lord from beginning to end,man does not contribute anything.

Re: Predestination [Re: Robin] #37717
Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:11 AM
Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:11 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13
Mississippi, USA
lacknothing Offline OP
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This is not salvation by works. Repenting does not save just as a phone call to 911 doesn't save you during an emergency, the Abulance or EMTs do. Just as the call to God (repentance) doesn't save you God does.

Re: Predestination [Re: lacknothing] #37718
Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:18 AM
Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline
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Quote
lacknothing said:
This is not salvation by works. Repenting does not save just as a phone call to 911 doesn't save you during an emergency, the Abulance or EMTs do. Just as the call to God (repentance) doesn't save you God does.


Can you call 911 when you're dead?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Predestination [Re: CovenantInBlood] #37719
Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:53 AM
Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13
Mississippi, USA
lacknothing Offline OP
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But how does the act of making the call save you?

Re: Predestination [Re: lacknothing] #37720
Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:40 AM
Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:40 AM
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Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline
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Quote
lacknothing said:
But how does the act of making the call save you?


You're the one who thinks salvation is given based on our act of repentance and faith. Why don't you tell us?

Now, understand we don't think that repentance and faith are unnecessary-in fact, until one exercises faith and repentance, he cannot be saved. But it's another thing entirely to say that salvation is based in any way on our own efforts.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Predestination [Re: lacknothing] #37721
Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:55 AM
Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,853
NH, USA
Pilgrim Online content

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Quote
lacknothing said:
But how does the act of making the call save you?

Why have you chosen to avoid CovenantInBlood's question, which is actually the basic issue here as I have tried to impress upon you several times and without any reply from you.

Quote
CovenantInBlood asks:
Can you call 911 when you're dead?

We here believe God's infallible Word which teaches that repentance and faith are the RESULT OF regeneration, which leads infallibly to salvation in Christ. If repentance and faith precede regeneration, then they are not of God but rather something which originates in man and thus they are a work. Kabish?

See here: There Are Only Two Religions in the Whole World, by John Reisinger. PLEASE read this!! I think it will bring the clarification you originally asked for. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Ordo Salutis [Re: lacknothing] #37722
Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:57 AM
Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
J_Edwards Offline
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This may help:

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

Note the ORDER.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Predestination [Re: CovenantInBlood] #37723
Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:02 PM
Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13
Mississippi, USA
lacknothing Offline OP
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Mississippi, USA
Salvation is a gift form God that is free to us but we have to accept this frees gift. It is not just given to us without our accepting it.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20.

Jesus stands at the the door and knocks (offering himself) and if any man hear my voice (have faith) and open the door (Repent) I will come in to him.

Jesus doens't say here that I stand at the door and knock and when you hear my voice and my Father opens the door then I will come in to him, NO he say IF any man HEAR my voice and OPEN the door. The infamous big little word "if" is there because there is a choice involved in this. And also you might see the word "any" there pretaining to the following word "man" and when you put these together you get "any man" meaning any person. So by this Jesus is saying that I will knock and ANYBODY who hears me and opens the door I will come in to them.

Re: Predestination [Re: lacknothing] #37724
Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:18 PM
Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,896
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,896
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Lacknothing
I would like you to exegete the following Bible verse for us, taking into account the context of the reason Jesus said it.
John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast you out."
You might also want to read the whole of chapter 6 and pay close attention to verses like 65.


Tom

Last edited by Tom; Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:22 PM.
Re: Predestination [Re: lacknothing] #37725
Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:23 PM
Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
J_Edwards Offline
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USA
Quote
lacknothing said:
Salvation is a gift form God that is free to us but we have to accept this frees gift. It is not just given to us without our accepting it.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20.

Jesus stands at the the door and knocks (offering himself) and if any man hear my voice (have faith) and open the door (Repent) I will come in to him.

Jesus doens't say here that I stand at the door and knock and when you hear my voice and my Father opens the door then I will come in to him, NO he say IF any man HEAR my voice and OPEN the door. The infamous big little word "if" is there because there is a choice involved in this. And also you might see the word "any" there pretaining to the following word "man" and when you put these together you get "any man" meaning any person. So by this Jesus is saying that I will knock and ANYBODY who hears me and opens the door I will come in to them.

Rev. 3:20 does not speak about salvation. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nono.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Rev 3:19-20 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This is an invitation not for the readers to be converted but to renew themselves in a relationship with Christ that has already begun. Verse 22 says, He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches ... Note whom the Spirit is addressing -- the churches. Compare "reprove and chasten" to Hebrews 12.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Predestination [Re: lacknothing] #37726
Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:30 PM
Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
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Quote
lacknothing said:
Salvation is a gift form God that is free to us but we have to accept this frees gift. It is not just given to us without our accepting it.


In other words, God offers salvation to us, but we have to do the rest in order to get it.

Quote
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20.

Jesus stands at the the door and knocks (offering himself) and if any man hear my voice (have faith) and open the door (Repent) I will come in to him.


This verse is not about salvation. It is a rebuke to the CHURCH in Laodicea.

Quote
Jesus doens't say here that I stand at the door and knock and when you hear my voice and my Father opens the door then I will come in to him, NO he say IF any man HEAR my voice and OPEN the door. The infamous big little word "if" is there because there is a choice involved in this. And also you might see the word "any" there pretaining to the following word "man" and when you put these together you get "any man" meaning any person. So by this Jesus is saying that I will knock and ANYBODY who hears me and opens the door I will come in to them.


Dead men do not hear and do not open doors, lacknothing.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Predestination [Re: lacknothing] #37727
Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:47 PM
Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:47 PM
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The Bronx, NY
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Paul_S Offline
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Lacknothing,

A little reminder that you opened this thread by stating:
Quote
I need some clarification on this subject.


but since that time you seem to have been quick to criticize the excellent material offered by several here to help you achieve exactly what you asked for; giving instead your own interpretation of passages and not answering several questions put to you. Heed the Scriptures:
Quote
If one gives an answer before he hears,
it is his folly and shame. (Provebs 18:13, ESV)


I have no ability to draw an answer from you to the questions I asked several days ago, but if you are at all open to the necessary truth of the Word of God concerning God's sole action in bringing dead sinners to life in Christ, please consider the following extension of the analogy comparing physical birth to spiritual birth:

A baby is conceived and later delivered into the world.

While in the womb, the baby has a nature of its own and even the ability to choose within a limited, but growing, number of options.

However, while in the womb, the baby has nothing in its nature, and therefore no desire and no ability, to choose any of the following:

    [*]the decision of its parents to have the baby,
    [*]action taken by its parents to cause it to exist,
    [*]the fact of its existence (it already exists),
    [*]the details of its existence (its family, nationality, and myriad other elements making it who it is),
    [*]the time and place of its deliverance from its mother; and finally,
    [*]it can neither choose, nor act upon the choice, to breathe and nurse--essential to its continued life--UNTIL IT HAS ACTUALLY BEEN BORN
    [/LIST]
    When we are brought to life from death by the Spirit of God, we are no more able--or willing--to choose the following than the baby is in its corresponding state:

      [*]the decision of God to save us,
      [*]action taken by God to cause us to be saved,
      [*]the fact of our being saved,
      [*]the details of our being saved,
      [*]the time and place of our deliverance from death; and
      [*]we can neither choose, nor act upon the choice, to repent and believe--essential to our continued life--UNTIL WE HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN BORN AGAIN! The response of repentance and faith are inevitable in one with the new nature created by God.
      [/LIST]

      The system you advocate, which cannot be reconciled with the Scriptures, gets everything backwards; you prefer a God who commands us to nurse and breathe inside the womb; he stands impotently at the foot of the bed to see if we obey or not; we make him really happy when we do what he says and decide to come out, but we make him really sad and angry when we decide to stay in the womb, because then he can't do anything about it.

      Lacknothing, I need a Savior whose arm is not too short to deliver. Do you; or does he need you?


In Christ,
Paul S
Re: Predestination [Re: lacknothing] #37728
Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:23 PM
Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:23 PM
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Posts: 17
maine
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jaf Offline
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maine
Lacknothing,
Have you received the clarification you were seeking? I have read all the posts on this thread. If you still can't see the TRUTH it's because you have no desire for it. I somehow cannot help but think the whole problem lies in the third sentence of your original post. There you stated "For some reason I can't get my heart to accept the predestination theology". When you figure out the reason why your heart can't accept this Blessed Truth I think you will be well on your way toward the clarification you seek. We all need to set aside human pride and have a teachable spirit. Have you read the article Pilgrim suggested?

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