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Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: hisalone] #40245
Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:51 AM
Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:51 AM
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Quote
hisalone said:
You put way too much faith in confessions. I don't find my final source in the confessions. As you demonstrated with this snippet, confessions of faith can be contradictory.

You are more Anabaptist than Reformed since you reject the great Confessions which the CHURCH (interdenominational) has formulated as a statement of faith in regard to the doctrines of Scripture. They are secondary to the Scriptures but as far as they teach what Scripture teaches they are to be seen as authoritative. This has been the understanding of the CHURCH (interdenominational), as previously shown, for centuries. The Holy Spirit wasn't dead during the period of the Apostles until you came along. He gave illumination to those whom He gifted as promised by the Lord Christ. Again, how is it that you are so knowledgeable of such things and all before us somehow were blind to these things? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

Quote
hisalone said:
What do YOU think the purpose of Baptism is? That is the crux of the matter, our view of its purpose.

My view is exactly that which is summarized in all the Confessions, catechisms and history of the CHURCH (Protestant) to which I referenced previously. Secondly, you were asked by both myself and CovenantInBlood to defend your view with Scripture. Asking what I/we believe is hardly an answer. Can you present your case or not?

Quote
hisalone said:
Why are you laughing? From your answer to me, it shows that you really do not understand anything that has been said to this point. Water baptism isn't necessary nor does it add to our salvation, it is about our choice to be obedient. How can an infant make such a choice? BTW, I believe in dedicating a child to the Lord, a choice a parent can make, but baptism is a personal choice that nobody can make for you. Is that so difficult to see?

[Linked Image] The topic at hand is your contention that the vast majority of the Church has somehow missed an important element in the meaning of baptism, i.e., it is a "consecration into the priesthood". And, such lack of understanding which is allegedly clearly taught in Scripture has led to a total misunderstanding of the sacrament. Since the CHURCH has summarized its teaching throughout history and has not recognized this "insight" of yours which is opposed to its teaching, the onus is upon YOU to bring forth a defense which is biblically cogent, precise and profound. Can you do this or not?

BTW, for a topic for another thread, where in Scripture can you show that infants are to be "dedicated"?

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: Pilgrim] #40246
Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:51 AM
Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:51 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190
Eastern Maryland
hisalone Offline OP
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Quote
Pilgrim said:

You are more Anabaptist than Reformed since you reject the great Confessions which the CHURCH (interdenominational) has formulated as a statement of faith in regard to the doctrines of Scripture. Again, how is it that you are so knowledgeable of such things and all before us somehow were blind to these things? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />


I believe your assessment of me is incorrect, but you are welcome to your opinion. I hold to the reformed faith in all matters except for baptism and possibly church government. The label reformed is only as an indentifier of my basic beliefs, not who I am.

Quote
Pilgrim said:
My view is exactly that which is summarized in all the Confessions, catechisms and history of the CHURCH (Protestant) to which I referenced previously. Secondly, you were asked by both myself and CovenantInBlood to defend your view with Scripture. Asking what I/we believe is hardly an answer. Can you present your case or not?


Our Lord spoke to the teachers of the law in the same manner, answering questions with questions, so it is appropriate. I told you what I believe baptism signifies, you didn't. Pointing to the confessions is hardly an answer of what you believe, let me hear it in your own words instead of constantly having others speak for you.

Quote
pilgrim said:

BTW, for a topic for another thread, where in Scripture can you show that infants are to be "dedicated"?


I'm not moving to another topic at this time you can if you like, but I didn't want to have you believe I am befuddled about dedication. What is hard to understand about the rite of dedicating to the Lord? Aren't there plenty of examples in scripture?

I clearly explained what I believe Baptism represents. This representation is in line with the way things are consecrated in the Bible. How individuals entered the priesthood etc. We are consecrating ourselves willingly. I don't understand why you are looking for specific verses. You make things more difficult than they are. Its as if you can't see the forest due to the trees. I am not presenting specific verses, I am saying read about consecration and washings and try to see what baptism is all about. Your thinking is going the same route of the Pharasees, hung up on particulars and because of that, unable to see the truth. Let each judge on their own what is true. I'm not interested in convincing you, each must be convinced in their own heart.


Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: Pilgrim] #40247
Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:01 AM
Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:01 AM
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I was going to respond but Pil did such a great job. Confessions are helpful in giving a concise summary of what is believed by a church, giving both essentials and non-essentials (for the sake of local church unity and clarifications). Again, they are secondary to Scripture.

Providentially, over on the Reformed Baptist Fellowship blog there are some articles you would greatly benefit from reading:

On the Value & Validity of Confessions of Faith, Part 1
ON THE VALIDITY & VALUE OF CONFESSIONS OF FAITH, PART 2
On the Validity & Value of Confessions of Faith, Part 3
The Value of a Confession of Faith, Part 4

Quote
As you demonstrated with this snippet, confessions of faith can be contradictory.


How is it contradictory? I am not denying that there can be contradictions in a confession of faith, as a confession is a human document, but I would like to know what you think is contradictory.

Do your elders share these same ideas that you do? Do you treat them the same way you treat us, ignoring all the things we try to point you to?


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: hisalone] #40248
Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:07 AM
Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:07 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline
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Quote
I clearly explained what I believe Baptism represents. This representation is in line with the way things are consecrated in the Bible. How individuals entered the priesthood etc. We are consecrating ourselves willingly. I don't understand why you are looking for specific verses. You make things more difficult than they are. Its as if you can't see the forest due to the trees. I am not presenting specific verses, I am saying read about consecration and washings and try to see what baptism is all about. Your thinking is going the same route of the Pharasees, hung up on particulars and because of that, unable to see the truth. Let each judge on their own what is true. I'm not interested in convincing you, each must be convinced in their own heart.


You're being rather lazy. You need to validate your view from Scripture. It is not an argument to say that this is simply the general tenor of the Bible. You need to show where in Scripture baptism is connected with priestly consecration.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: hisalone] #40249
Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:45 PM
Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:45 PM
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Posts: 17
maine
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jaf Offline
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maine
hisalone,

You claim to be reformed but I question whether you have studied at all the reformed(and I believe the Biblical understanding of baptism) position on baptism. It is a sign and seal of the NEW covenant, whereas circumcision is the sign and seal of the OLD covenant. In order for you to come to a better understanding of covenant theology I would recommend a booklet by John P. Sartelle. The title is "What Christian Parents Should Know About Infant Baptism". It is published by P&R publishing. The cover contains a word from J.I.Packer which says "is far and away the best study of it's kind-simple,vivid,practical,pastoral-that I have read...I commend it as intrinsically excellent(and) pastorally timely."Baptism is ALL about the Covenants and not about the priesthood.
I do not believe that my brothers and sisters on this forum are being in anyway judgemental. They are simply trying impress upon you(in love) the need to rightly divide the Word of Truth. We have a great heritage--God has raised up gifted men(gifted by the Holy Spirit)to teach. Pray for a teachable spirit. Jon

Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: Pilgrim] #40250
Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:37 PM
Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:37 PM
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
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Pilgrim

I know there are probably more Credo-Baptist members than I know about and perhaps I shouldn't have made that comment. But please take my comment as one of respect for this board.

What you just said made me wonder among the members who are Credo-Baptist members, do they have the same understanding of baptism as our friend hisalone does?
I have to say, that although I may be ignorant about this, I haven't heard a Reformed Baptist describe it that way before.

Tom

Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: Tom] #40251
Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:31 AM
Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:31 AM
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Florida
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Robin Offline
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That's because no one ever has assigned that meaning to Christian baptism - until now.

Christianity would be a completely different religion today if it were left up to individuals without coordination to assign whatever meaning to the Scriptures...

Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: Robin] #40252
Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:42 AM
Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:42 AM
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Quote
That's because no one ever has assigned that meaning to Christian baptism - until now.


Ok, I am not defending hisalone, but I did some Google searching. I am not advocating the writers of these works either...But apparently there are others that believe similarly to what hisalone does on this issue. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The Priesthood of the Plebs: a Theology of Baptism- Peter Leithart (Warning: Federal Visionist heresy!)

Of Baptism- Bob Burridge

The Reformed Doctrine of Baptism & New Testament Practice- Ligon Duncan


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: MarieP] #40253
Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:33 AM
Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,853
NH, USA
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Quote
MarieP said:
Ok, I am not defending hisalone, but I did some Google searching. I am not advocating the writers of these works either...But apparently there are others that believe similarly to what hisalone does on this issue. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The Priesthood of the Plebs: a Theology of Baptism- Peter Leithart (Warning: Federal Visionist heresy!)

Of Baptism- Bob Burridge

The Reformed Doctrine of Baptism & New Testament Practice- Ligon Duncan

Marie,

Methinks your method of searching with Google needs to be improved. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> The two articles by Burridge and Duncan clearly do NOT teach anything even remotely similar to what hisalone is advocating, i.e., "baptism means/is a consecration of a NT believer into a/the priesthood". I read through both articles from beginning to end and nothing of the sort is even hinted at by either author. Both take the historic, biblical view on the meaning of baptism. As for Leithart, I have no desire to waste my time reading the writings of a heretic especially when I know that for FV'ers, baptism is something far different than it is in historic biblical Christianity. It's just that I cannot see wasting my time looking for truth from one who rejects the truth. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: Pilgrim] #40254
Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:51 AM
Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:51 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,579
Kentucky
MarieP Offline
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I should have been more clear...

The articles mentioned priesthood only in relation to Christ's baptism by John, not the baptism of Christians. I thought you were also objecting to hisalone's statement that Christ's had to do with the priesthood. Sorry I was not clear. No, they do not say that Christian baptism has to do with the priesthood.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: MarieP] #40255
Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:22 PM
Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
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Pilgrim Online content

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MarieP said:
I should have been more clear...

The articles mentioned priesthood only in relation to Christ's baptism by John, not the baptism of Christians. I thought you were also objecting to hisalone's statement that Christ's had to do with the priesthood. Sorry I was not clear. No, they do not say that Christian baptism has to do with the priesthood.

Marie,

No, there is no objection to Christ's baptism having a relationship to His being consecrated into the priesthood. It was necessary that He fulfill all righteousness. That is surely taught in Scripture. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And thanks for the links, especially the one by Ligon Duncan. It's very good! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: Pilgrim] #40256
Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:40 PM
Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,896
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
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Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
MarieP said:
Ok, I am not defending hisalone, but I did some Google searching. I am not advocating the writers of these works either...But apparently there are others that believe similarly to what hisalone does on this issue. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The Priesthood of the Plebs: a Theology of Baptism- Peter Leithart (Warning: Federal Visionist heresy!)

Of Baptism- Bob Burridge

The Reformed Doctrine of Baptism & New Testament Practice- Ligon Duncan

Marie,

Methinks your method of searching with Google needs to be improved. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> The two articles by Burridge and Duncan clearly do NOT teach anything even remotely similar to what hisalone is advocating, i.e., "baptism means/is a consecration of a NT believer into a/the priesthood". I read through both articles from beginning to end and nothing of the sort is even hinted at by either author. Both take the historic, biblical view on the meaning of baptism. As for Leithart, I have no desire to waste my time reading the writings of a heretic especially when I know that for FV'ers, baptism is something far different than it is in historic biblical Christianity. It's just that I cannot see wasting my time looking for truth from one who rejects the truth. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


Pilgrim

I am glad that I read what you had to say before I replied to Marie, because what you found was exactly my thoughts after reading those links. I was thinking that perhaps I was missing something.

Tom

Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: Pilgrim] #40257
Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:36 PM
Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:36 PM
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Quote
Pilgrim said:

<span style="background-color:#FFFF00">No, there is no objection to Christ's baptism having a relationship to His being consecrated into the priesthood.</span> It was necessary that He fulfill all righteousness. That is surely taught in Scripture.



I copied this is from the book "Looking Unto Jesus" by Isaac Ambrose, I just started to read it again it's a must have.

Quote
6 That he might fulfill all righteousness : not only moral, but the figurative, ceremonial and typical : some think that the ceremony, to which our Saviour looked at in these words, was the washing of the priests in water, when they entered into their function. "and Aaron, and his sons thou shalt bring to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water," Exod. 29:4 Lev. 8:6 <span style="background-color:#FFFF00">And surely this was the main reason of Christ's being baptized, that by this baptism he might be installed into his ministerial office.</span> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />



William

Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: William] #40258
Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:56 PM
Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:56 PM
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Quote
William said:
Quote
Pilgrim said:

<span style="background-color:#FFFF00">No, there is no objection to Christ's baptism having a relationship to His being consecrated into the priesthood.</span> It was necessary that He fulfill all righteousness. That is surely taught in Scripture.



I copied this is from the book "Looking Unto Jesus" by Isaac Ambrose, I just started to read it again it's a must have.

Quote
6 That he might fulfill all righteousness : not only moral, but the figurative, ceremonial and typical : some think that the ceremony, to which our Saviour looked at in these words, was the washing of the priests in water, when they entered into their function. "and Aaron, and his sons thou shalt bring to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water," Exod. 29:4 Lev. 8:6 <span style="background-color:#FFFF00">And surely this was the main reason of Christ's being baptized, that by this baptism he might be installed into his ministerial office.</span> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />



William



This is the best I could find concerning baptism/priestood of believers. I don't think the web site is fully reformed though. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Quote
[b]The Whole Church Is A Priestly People[/b]

Christ, high priest and unique mediator, has made of the Church "a kingdom, priests for his God and Father" [Rev 1:6; Rev 5:9-10; 1 Pet 2:5, 9]. The whole community of believers is, as such, priestly. The faithful exercise their baptismal priesthood through their participation, each according to his own vocation, in Christ's mission as priest, prophet, and king (CCC1546). For in the Church there is diversity of ministry but unity of mission. To the apostles and their successors Christ has entrusted the office of teaching, sanctifying and governing in his name and by his power. But the laity are made to share in the priestly, prophetical, and kingly office of Christ; they have therefore, in the Church and in the world, their own assignment in the mission of the whole People of God (CCC873).
The whole Church is a priestly people. Through Baptism all the faithful share in the priesthood of Christ. This participation is called the "common priesthood of the faithful" (CCC1591). On entering the People of God through faith and Baptism, one receives a share in this people's unique, priestly vocation: "Christ the Lord, high priest taken from among men, has made this new people 'a kingdom of priests to God, his Father.' The baptized, by regeneration and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, are consecrated to be a spiritual house and a holy priesthood" [Heb 5:1-5; Rev 1:6] (CCC784) . The baptized have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood" [1 Pet 2:5]. By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light" [1 Pet 2:9]. Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers (CCC1268) .



William

Re: Baptism why the disagreement concerning mode? [Re: William] #40259
Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:16 PM
Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:16 PM
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Pilgrim Online content

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Quote
William said:
This is the best I could find concerning baptism/priestood of believers. I don't think the web site is fully reformed though. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> That's an understatement! The homepage makes it clear where they are coming from: Comparing Mormons, e.g.,

- The intent of this web site is be a resource for Catholics.
- Compare Catholic Teachings Against Mormon Teachings

Hmmmm, would this be a reliable source for evidence to give credibility to one's view(s)? [Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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