The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum The Doctrine of God - Calvinism vs Arminianism

I would like to begin this new topic by making the following proposition:

One of the major attributes of the God of Scripture is that He possesses "Aseity". By definition, aseity is to be self-existent, uncaused, self-sufficient, 'independent in His being and in everything else: in His virtues, decrees, works, etc.' All things are therefore of necessity caused to be dependent upon Him. (cf. Jh 5:26; Ps 94:8; Isa 40:18ff; Acts 7:25; Rom 11:33-36; Dan 4:35; Rom 9:19; Eph 1:5; Rev 4:11; Ps 33:11; 115:3)

Would those who contend that there is little difference between Arminianism and Calvinism affirm the above statement? Does Arminianism consistently uphold this truth when examined and compared with Arminianism's other doctrines?

In His grace,

Oh, dear. No one has replied to this. I'm not knowledgable enough to answer your question. I won't say that there is little difference between the two. I am not Arminian and don't believe I ever will or can be.

But I was wondering on the other thread if Genesis 22:12 is a legitmate argument against determinism and Calvinsim. Okay, I certainly don't believe it is, but how does a Calvinist explain it?

Lynda,

For the benefit of others who may not have memorized Gen 22:12:

I am going to assume that it is the phrase, "For now I know..." that is used to prove that man has a free-will in this manner: God waited to see what Abraham would do before intervening and supplying the ram in the thicket. Put another way, God didn't force Abraham to act in faith; it was an act of 'free-will'.

For the sake of brevity and argument, let's take this idea and run with it to see where it could lead.

1) The implication is that God did not know, for how could He, what Abraham would do until he actually did it. For since Abraham was 'free' to chose he could have just as well chosen to not offer up Isaac.

2) God blesses those who are obedient or who [implied] act in faith.

Okay... as to #1: To even suggest that God did not know what Abraham would do is to deny one of deity's core incommunicable attributes, Omniscience: God knows all things. And the reason why God knows all things is because He has determined all things. If you would like to follow up as the Devil's Advocate, hehe, and respond with, "But God knows all things because He has looked into the future to see what will happen, etc." We can just as easily give a biblical answer to that too.

Now, as to #2: While it is certainly true that obedience is required of all men, i.e., that all men conform themselves perfectly to the law of God in thought, word and deed, it is also true that no man can or has done so except the Lord Jesus Christ. And it is equally true, that even the good works of the regenerate are less than perfect although blessed by God and will even be rewarded by God as they done by faith and in Christ. But what is not true is that these 'good works' and especially 'faith' find their origin in man apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, Who is God. (cf. Phil 2:12, 13; Eph 1:4; 2:10; 2Thess 2:13, 14; 1Cor 1:30)

Thanks for responding!

In His grace,

Does God look into the future or is it really that He has already planned it? Can you give me some verses?



I totally agree.


You're welcome!

The very best example I know is Acts 2:23


The Lord was slain "from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8)" and we were chosen in Him "before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4)." Clearly murder is against God's moral will, yet it was His will and plan to have His only begotten Son murdered!


The redemption of His people had to be accomplished by the shedding of innocent blood. And it was God's plan even before creation!

None of the participants in the Lord's murder did so unwillingly. Even the wicked serve His eternal purpose!

Stunning. Wonderous! Glorious!

-Robin

1) Well, let's first look at the proposition that "God peers down the corridors of time, aka: looks into the future." {My students should be doing the responding to these questions since we covered these things thoroughly in some of our recent classes.}

Alrighty...

1. With God there is no time and thus no future.
2. But, IF this were possible for God to peer into the future, where did this alleged future originate? Did God create it? or did it just happen on its own, which is a denial of God's Omnipotence.
3. If God has to look into an alleged future, then this implies that there exists a place or something which He is not part of, which is a denial of God's Omnipresence.
4. All events are inextricably bound to other events so whatever God would have seen would have also been created and controlled by Him, or they are simply random events that happen by chance, aka: Atheism.
5. If God had to look into the future to observe what men would do before He could ordain them, which is then "postdestination" vs. predestination, then it must be that God was lacking in all knowledge at some point in His existence, which is a denial of God's Omniscience.

God KNOWS all things inherently, aka: "Foreknowledge" because He has foreordained all things. Put another way, God knows all things because He has determined all things. This isn't such a difficult concept to grasp because it is also true in the earthly realm. An architect could easily take you to a vacant lot and describe in great detail how a huge skyscraper is going to look, how many rooms it will have, the color of the carpet, etc. And how would he know that information? Simply because he is the one who has designed it. He doesn't have to look into some alleged "future" to see what might happen and on that basis draw his blueprints.

Lastly, IF man has a "free-will" as defined by the Arminians/semi-Pelagians, i.e., fallen man is capable of choosing that which is contrary to his nature, then it would be absolutely impossible for even God to know the future since there is no way to know how a man will choose. There are those who are 'logically consistent Arminians' who admit this. Their heresy is known as "Open Theism" or "Middle Knowledge". They unabashedly admit that God does not know all things because since man is "free" it is impossible for God to know what any man will do even if all the secondary causes and circumstances are known to Him.

Well, hopefully you won't choke on that mouthful of information.

Robin's response taking you to the crucifixion of Christ is the classic illustration of God's absolute sovereignty of all men and events AND how men had the freedom to do their evil deed; murder the Son of God.

2) Oh yeh... one other little thought. IF God has not ordained all things according to His eternal counsel, then there would be no guarantee that any prophesy would have taken place.

3) Passages to consider: Isa 43:10-13; 44:7; 45:21; 46:9,10; 55:10,11; Ps 135:6; Prov 19:21; 21:30; Dan 4:35; Eph 1:9-11; Col 1:12-17; Jam 1:18; Rom 11:33-36; et al.

In His grace,

A lot of people hate that concept, but that's what I read in my Bible.

BTW, Pilgrim, while on vacation my husband played a sermon (speech) by Dr. William Lane Craig, and I asked, "Who is this guy?" Then I ran across the word Molinism and had to look that up. So I'm really working on absorbing all this new information without running off in a million different directions.

That's awesome! I'm glad I asked the question. Thank you for taking the time to reply!

How about this?

And how about the book of Habakkuk, the prophet who was at first not only perplexed but upset with God because He had ordained that the Chaldeans (Babylonians) would crush [punish] Judah when they were far more wicked than Judah. But eventually, Habakkuk is shown and convinced by God that He has the right to do such things and that the Chaldeans were going to be punished for their exceeding wickedness in the end.


Romans 11:33-36 (ASV) O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him [be] the glory for ever. Amen.

I've been told more than once that the God described by Calvinists is unjust and saves people merely on a whim. But, yes, I've read Romans 9:17 and believed that God is wiser than I am. What do Arminians and the majority of church-goers in Utah do with Romans 9:17?

Now, why is it I seem to have heard that argument before somewhere?

Romans 9:13-20 (ASV) "Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?"

Amazing isn't it how the Holy Spirit anticipated that such silliness would get passed down from generation to generation? The problem was from the beginning one of AUTONOMY. The Devil sought to usurp God's sovereignty, i.e., His right, His authority to do whatsoever He pleased according to the good pleasure of His will. Well, that didn't work out as Satan thought it would, now did it! But being what Jonathan Edwards loved to call him, "the greatest blockhead to ever exist", he didn't give up and decided to include humans in with his band of not so merry fallen angels. So, he whispered ever so convincingly to Eve that she wouldn't die at all if she at the forbidden fruit but rather even God knew "that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil." Ya see, there it is again... man could become as God; his own authority, exercising his own will according to his own desires. And, so it is today that ALL humans inherit their father Adam's depraved nature and continue unabashedly to believe the Devil's lie; i.e., he is able to do what he wants, when he wants and how he wants, even though perhaps God needs to help him along from time to time.

Men simply won't bow before God and esteem Him LORD. As the old adage says, "In the beginning, God created man in His own image. And, ever since that day, man has been trying to return the favor."

That's why it takes Amazing GRACE to save a wretch... like me!

A non-Calvinist might say, "If you believe in determinism then there is no morality, let alone sin, and man cannot be condemned."

determinism
In general, a philosophical doctrine holding that every event inevitably follows some antecedent event or events, that the course of nature is rigidly fixed by what has occurred in the past; in particular, that the human will is not free, all volition being the necessary outcome of inherited tendencies, acquired habits, irresistible impulses, under the influence of present circumstances or mental conditions. The will is determined, mechanically, by the strongest motive; it cannot act otherwise. The doctrine does away with responsibility, merit and demerit, right and wrong, morality of any sort.
New Catholic Dictionary
http://saints.sqpn.com/ncd02674.htm


Which philosopher taught this? How would you respond?

Isn't man already condemned before he even knows that Christ existed?

Since when is God obligated to show mercy to anyone at all? Since when is any sinner entitled to it? The wonder is not that He shows mercy to some and justice to the rest, but that He would have mercy on anyone.

The people who cry, "it isn't fair that He chooses one and not all" are making the same argument as those who say, "it isn't fair that there's only one way to salvation and it leaves out all the Muslims and Hindus and Wiccans and Jews and all the other world religions!"

-Robin

That's a hard pill to swallow when you come from a family of unbelievers who say those very things.