The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Predestination

Is the terms ORDAIN and PREDESTINED synonyms.?

They can be if used generally. Ordain is also a synonym for decree. Predestined can be used salvifically which ordain is not.

What is the major difference between God decreeing and ordaining then?

The terms are typically synonymous in meaning.

Is there any difference based upon if God is directly determining what happens, or is indirectly allowing it to haoppen?

ALL THINGS have been determined, decreed, foreordained by God from eternity. NOTHING is "indirectly allowed to happen". God is sovereign in both power and authority and does all things according to His good pleasure. IF there was but one single miniscule thing which God has not purposed, then God would not be God as He is described in the Bible. And, if anyone believes that God does not determine and providentially bring to pass ALL THINGS without exception... Dr. R.C. Sproul says they are an Atheist, and I heartily agree.

For want of a nail a shoe was lost,
for want of a shoe a horse was lost,
for want of a horse a rider was lost,
for want of a rider an army was lost,
for want of an army a battle was lost,
for want of a battle the war was lost,
for want of the war the kingdom was lost,
and all for the want of a little horseshoe nail.

Do you hold thenm that God directly determined evil and sin, or that He allowed that to happen, choose to let it come to pass, and determined how to rectify the situation? The discussion would then be between those holding to he decreed the Cross before or after the Fall event?

I hold to Infralapsarianism vs. Supralapsarianism. For an article describing what these are, see here: Supralapsarianism and Infralapsarianism

Here is how the logical order of God's decree(s) looks according to both:

Infralapsarianism
1. the decree to create the world and (all) men
2. the decree that (all) men would fall
3. the election of some fallen men to salvation in Christ (and the reprobation of the others)
4. the decree to redeem the elect by the cross work of Christ
5. the decree to apply Christ's redemptive benefits to the elect

Supralapsarianism
1. the election of some men to salvation in Christ (and the reprobation of the others)
2. the decree to create the world and both kinds of men
3. the decree that all men would fall
4. the decree to redeem the elect, who are now sinners, by the cross work of Christ
5. the decree to apply Christ's redemptive benefits to these elect sinners

Now, once again, there is NO THING... NOTHING which exists nor happens apart from God's eternal decree and providence. Scripture knows nothing of God "choosing to let xxxx happen and then determining how to rectify the situation".

The prime example of how this works out is the crucifixion of Christ. Scripture describes the entire event according to God's eternal decree which he gave to the prophets of old to declare throughout history. If God did not decree something, then prophecy would never be certain... think about it!!

God did not determined that the fall would happen by decree , or He did then?

There are calvinists who would not hold to double predestination though, only for the elect saved, correct?

And the Lord determined the results of the fall and the Cross to rectify it, but Adam still has a free will choice beforehe fell, but no longer afterwards?

1. God determined (decreed) the Fall. I'll repeat myself once again... There is NOTHING that exists which God has not decreed/foreordained by His eternal determinate council. God is absolutely sovereign and man is fully responsible in all things. BOTH truths are taught in Scripture.

- God's Indisputable Sovereignty

- CALVINISM...the Truth

2. Yes, there are those who profess to be Calvinists who reject double predestination. The result of rejecting this biblical truth is in the end a denial of the biblical God. You need to know that many who reject double predestination do not understand biblical double predestination but oppose what is a distortion of that truth.

Double Predestination (one of the most accessed articles on The Highway)

3. The crucifixion of Christ was NOT a rectification of the decree of the Fall. The Fall was decreed as part of God's one eternal purpose to demonstrate His holiness, justice, mercy, grace and love. Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 spell this out in great detail.

Yes, Adam had a "free-will" which is to be understood as the ability to do that which was according to his nature. Adam's nature was upright and had no predisposition toward evil. God gave Adam the ability to not sin, the ability to sin but not the ability to never sin [posse peccare - posse non-peccare - non posse non peccare]. When Adam sinned as the God-appointed federal head of the human race, he died (Gen 2:17); spiritually [immediate], physically [progressively], eternally [just judgment of God]. All of Adam's progeny suffered with him (Rom 5:12-18; 1Cor 15:21,22). The punishment God pronounced on Adam and thus the entire human race is known as "Original Sin". It consisted of two elements: 1. Guilt for having disobeyed God's law, and 2. the corruption of his nature aka: Total Depravity. All human beings at conception inherit the depraved nature and the guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to them.

God can still be Sovereign and permit his creatures to make decisions to do though, and still be seen as part of His Plans and purposes, correct? As God decreed thatJesus would die on the Cross, and yet God still used sinners to accomplish that thru their decisions, not forced by Him?

The bible to me seems to be stating that in this Present age, before the second coming, There will be things permitted/allowed by God, sucj as Isis running wild for example?

Methinks I should slow down a bit since it seems that you are not grasping some of the basic doctrines and concepts of biblical/Reformed theology. So, here goes...

ALL THINGS/EVERYTHING has been ordained by God. And whatsoever He has decreed/ordained He brings to pass via His perfect Providence.

Man was created as a FREE AGENT, i.e., man was given an intellect, emotions and a will. The will of man is totally dependent upon the intellect and/or will. The will is NOT independent, i.e., able to function on its own. In the beginning, Adam was created with a holy disposition toward God. There was no propensity, inclination to do anything contrary to what God commanded. However, through the ORDAINED instrumentality of the Evil One (Satan/Devil), Eve was deceived and then influenced Adam to sin along with her and transgressed the single commandment of God. Their punishment which was told Adam before his transgression was thus meted out; Original Sin... spiritual and physical death, the spiritual taking place immediately at the moment Adam sinned and physical death began. And, due to his transgression/sin, Adam accrued guilt before God. The consequence of Adam's sin was passed on to ALL his progeny, i.e., every man, woman and child conceived on this earth inherits a depraved/corrupt nature (spiritually dead soul) and the guilt is imputed to them.

Okay, what does all this mean in regard to all who came into existence after the Fall? 1) Man's will is still free but it is subject totally to the fallen/corrupt/depraved nature. Since ALL MEN are spiritually dead, they by nature hate God, hate all things good and are at enmity with God. To summarize Paul's teaching in Romans 3, no man seeks after God. No man has one good thought. No man has a pure emotion. No man does anything good. Fallen man LOVES sin and everything evil. The non-Reformed religions ALL believe that man is NOT dead but terminally ill at worst. But there still resides within man the desire and ability to do that which is good although some believe that is only possible with God's help.

Now let us go back full circle. God has ordained/determined/decreed ALL THINGS, including the thoughts and intentions of every man woman and child. For example, God has ordained the assassination of leaders, the rape of women, the abortion of the unborn, the telling of lies, etc., etc., ad infinitum. But all these things which we are sinful and done by people according to God's ordination are done FREELY and most willingly because they are the NATURAL fruit of their depraved/corrupt nature. The biblical illustration I provided you with in regard to the crucifixion of Christ is the paradigm example, for there is no sin which anyone has done or could do is more horrid and worthy of eternal punishment that the murder of the incarnate Son of God, the man Christ Jesus. The crucifixion was ORDAINED and thus foretold in myriad prophesies through ancient times and by God's providence every single thing was orchestrated to bring this event about. Yet, ALL who participated in every tiny element throughout history did what they did most willingly... they chose to do so.

Conversely, if God does not decree all things and by His providence bring all things to pass, the world would immediately fall into complete ruin and the human race would annihilate itself in a very short time. Without the restraining power of God upon depraved humanity, ALL would be UTTERLY Depraved vs. Totally Depraved.

So, to iterate for you, since the Fall men are perfectly free to think, say and do as they please according to their depraved/corrupt nature. They are NOT free to think, say or do anything contrary to that nature. (Rom 8:7,8; Eph 4:17,18; et al)

Explained above. God does not nor can He force the human will to do anything contrary to a person's nature. It took God's retraining providence to keep Christ alive until the perfect time (Gal 4:4,5). An illuminating incident in the OT shows a marvelous example of this truth (Gen 20:1-6).

My last time to state this for you.... ALL THINGS have been eternally decreed/foreordained/determined by God. ALL THINGS are under His infinite and perfect providential control and care. NOTHING happens nor can happen which God has not decreed. This truth is the foundation upon which a Christian rests his hope of eternal life and that he will forever be loved by God in Christ (Rom 8:28-39).

Concerning "double predestination"; I have had discussions with Calvinists that reject the doctrine of double predestination simply because they believe it makes God a monster.
They say that God predestines the elect, but not the non-elect. Yet, no matter how one tries to reason around it, if he predestines some to eternal life and leaves others in their trespasses and sins, He in essence is predestining both the elect and non-elect.
I tried to explain this to one and he insisted that leaving the no-elect in their trespasses and sins is not predestination.
So, at least in this case, I think it is the word predestination that is the problem, not the idea the doctrines is conveying.

Tom

Exactly! Again, this all boils down to the doctrine of Total Depravity!!!!!!! If one accepts the biblical truth of the Fall and Original Sin (not Adam's first sin but the punishment for that sin; corruption of nature and guilt) then without a direct intervention of God upon a sinner, there is no possibility anyone could or would be saved from the eternal damnation they deserve. "Leaving" a fallen man to himself is a guarantee he will be cast into hell. It doesn't open the "chance" that this sinner would ever repent and believe upon Christ given that he is by nature a hater of God, of Christ and all that is good. He has no interest whatsoever in being reconciled to God and being forgiven for his sins.

This view is also a denial of God's omnipotence, His supreme sovereignty by which ALL THINGS exist and happen according to His good pleasure (Isa 46:9,10) and providence. God determines the beginning and the end of all things including human beings. NOTHING is left unto itself, which is what Deism teaches... God created the world like a clock, would it up and then sits back and lets it run on its own.

Thus, God decreed the Fall and who out of Adam's fallen race would be redeemed from it. Those not decreed to be saved were de facto decreed to remain in their fallen state and face the judgment and punishment due them on the last day. This is called the decree/doctrine of Reprobation. (see Reprobation by John Bunyan).

I think that the common objection to that would be they would see God has being falalistic. more like how Allah determines heaven/Hell, and man has no responsibility/accountability in that result!

I have no proble accepting all that you stated here, its just that somehow have a hard time reconciling God directly determing a Hiler, or causing ISIS to chop off heads?

Why? Where is the problem? Are you familiar with the book of Habbakuk? In it, God through the prophet reveals the consternation of the people of Israel against God for bringing the Assyrians against them in order to punish their sinful ways when the Assyrians are perceptually far more sinful than them (Israelites). Did not God chose Cyrus to bring punishment upon Israel as well? Did not God raise up Pharoah and Nebuchadrezzar against Israel?

Remember once again that God by his "determinate council and foreknowledge" through the hands of lawless men did crucify Christ (Acts 2:23). There is nothing to reconcile... God is wholly sovereign and man is wholly responsible, aka: determinism AND compatibalism. These are not antithetical concepts but biblical truths of how things really exist.

So the predetermined plans of God are fulfilled by those such as Isis doing what they "wanted to do?"

Need I repeat myself again? ALL THINGS have been ordained/decreed by God. NOTHING that exists or happens is outside the eternal determinate council and providence of God.



- Calvin's Calvinism: The Eternal Predestination of God

Highly recommended also is A.W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God (Baker edition).

This is in refernce to God raising up and using the Pharoah of the Exodus event, does He do that all the time, or use spersons in such fashion for special occusions?

Really????? How many times must I state the biblical teaching concerning the absolute sovereignty of God in ALL THINGS, i.e., EVERYTHING that exists and happens to ALL of creation including humans is due to God's eternal decree. The reference to Pharoah was simply one of many examples found in Scripture.

Here's much more: God's Indisputable Sovereignty.

The Prdestined will of God is one of the hardest things for many Christians to get a handle on!

And 99% of the time it is because they cannot or will not acknowledge the total depravity of man. As the late John Gerstner said at the 1978 PCRT Conference in Wheaton, Ill, (paraphrase) "Once you realize just how far gone you really are, that there is no good thing within you, you will be just like Martin Luther. You'll believe in Unconditional Election even if it wasn't in the Bible... for there simply isn't any other way you could be saved."

The full transcript of his lecture is available here or on the website but I can't remember where.

Gerstner's book, Theology for Everyman can be accessed here: Theology for Everyman.

One of the problems that I run into is that Christians understand that concept to mean that all of us are like a Hitler, all bad as we can be, but fail to see that it means that none of can can do anything to save us now!

Click here for the article TULIP by John Gerstner

1. Wrong... we are not nearly as bad as we could be, aka: UTTER Depravity due to the restraining power of the Holy Spirit. That all at conception are TOTALLY Depraved; every facet of one's nature is sinful and in rebellion against God is true.

2. That never ceases to amaze me, i.e., how so many can be so woefully illogical in their views. This is simply one perfect example of the noetic effects of sin. The mind, affections and will are all under the power of sin and let's not forget that all by nature are under the power of the "prince of the power of the air"; the Devil (Eph 2:2; 1Jh 5:19; Rev 12:9).

When i ask them as to what part of man was not affected by the Fall, they get quit, or when asking them to explain how spiritual dead can freely respond to God,,, Sound of silence...