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This morning was my first Communion service at the Baptist church I currently attend. I knew most, if not all, Baptists used grape juice instead of wine, but I'd never heard of any church using white grape juice as was done today. I've looked online to see if I could find a reason for it, and so far the only thing I found was to keep someone from accidentally taking wine? I don't understand that. To be honest, I felt it more 'authentic' in a liturgical service with real red wine when I was visiting Anglican and Lutheran services. I find only "red wine" in the Scriptures and it seems natural to represent blood. Anyone else encountered white grape juice or wine for the Lord's Supper, or know the reason for it?


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Those who refuse to use actual wine do so mainly because in their view:

1. To drink any alcohol is a sin. (biblically indefensible).
2. They do not want to entice an ex-alcoholic to revert to drunkenness.

This second reason is likewise indefensible, particularly if it is done in regard to Christian Liberty, i.e., abstinence for the sake of the weaker brother. However, Scripture is crystal clear that the Church is ALWAYS to practice and/or legislate policy as the stronger brother, for the scruples of the weaker brother find fault with things which are in and of themselves good, i.e., sanctioned by God Himself. If the Scriptures teach that wine is to be used in the Lord's Supper, then wine should be used. Jesus did not turn water into grape juice. wink


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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Those who refuse to use actual wine do so mainly because in their view:

1. To drink any alcohol is a sin. (biblically indefensible).
2. They do not want to entice an ex-alcoholic to revert to drunkenness.

This second reason is likewise indefensible, particularly if it is done in regard to Christian Liberty, i.e., abstinence for the sake of the weaker brother. However, Scripture is crystal clear that the Church is ALWAYS to practice and/or legislate policy as the stronger brother, for the scruples of the weaker brother find fault with things which are in and of themselves good, i.e., sanctioned by God Himself. If the Scriptures teach that wine is to be used in the Lord's Supper, then wine should be used. Jesus did not turn water into grape juice. wink

Pilgrim, I agree with you. I particularly liked what you said about the Church practicing or legislating for the stronger if sanctioned by God Himself, I'd not heard that angle. I had a 'wicked' thought since posting. I see myself in the near future now: "Pastor, since we believe in the two Scriptural ordinances as Baptists, and we insist on baptism being done according to Scripture, immersion as to symbolize the burial and then rising up to new life; why are we not so particular to handle the Lord's Supper with the same exactness, using red wine?" My Pastor has a good sense of humor, an older man so I think he'd take it in good spirit. laugh


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I attend a Reformed Baptist Church and although grape juice is used in our communion services, never have I have seen white grape juice served.
That said, I do know that my pastor and the leadership of our Church would actually love to start using actual wine in our communion services. However, if we did we know the consequences would not be good. Especially from the older Christians attending.
Sinse my pastor accepted the call to become our pastor around 8 years ago. The Church has slowly got more and more Reformed in its approach. This has not come without a lot of struggle. Some have left because during his expositional sermons, he did not shy away from interpreting the passage biblically. During that time, he did not say words like Calvinism, Arminianism etc. Yet it was very clear on what he believed (by the way, it was in keeping with the Churches statement of faith). Up until about 6 years ago there were 4 elders; two Arminian and two Calvinists. I was told the elder meetings were quite spirited.
We have had people leave who embraced the doctrines of grace, but because my pastor is not a Dispensationalist, they left the Church in protest saying the Bible clearly supports Dispensationalism. I found out that years ago, a pastor at our Church got fired for being A-millennial.
Just over a year ago, we changed our name to reflect better on what we believed as Church. We named it Providence Baptist Church.
I know how much this new name would wrankle some of the people that left the Church.lol
Anyway, the leadership is careful, but deliberate on the fights they choose to pick.
I can also tell you that many Sundays (especially in the Summer) where having 50 people is good attendance. That coming from a congregation that has fluctuated between 35 and 150 people in the last 7 years.
Not sure if that helped answer your question, nor do I know if this is typical in Reformed Baptist Churches.

Tom
PS, please be in prayer for my pastor and his family. Not only have they had it tough with things in the Church they have a tottler who has had poor health his whole life.


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Originally Posted by PerpetualLearner
I find only "red wine" in the Scriptures and it seems natural to represent blood. Anyone else encountered white grape juice or wine for the Lord's Supper, or know the reason for it?
If we are allowed to change the symbols as we see fit, I vote for beer and pizza! cheers2 Seriously, this is a matter I feel rather strongly about. As Pilgrim alluded to, bread and wine, and only bread and wine are acceptable at the Lord's table.

Now as to your question, I agree with the phrase in bold (emphasis mine) in the part quoted above. But I have to ask, in all the places where the Bible refers to wine, is it specific as to red vs. white wine? Would white wine be acceptable?

And in regard to the bread, is either leavened or unleavened bread acceptable?


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Originally Posted by Meta4
But I have to ask, in all the places where the Bible refers to wine, is it specific as to red vs. white wine? Would white wine be acceptable?

And in regard to the bread, is either leavened or unleavened bread acceptable?
I don't recall any injunction that specifies that wine must be red. Likewise, I do not recall an injunction that specifies that the bread must be unleavened. To add to what God has set forth in regard to the Lord's Table on the basis of speculation is to profane it... yes? Methinks that one can see a similar example in regard to the 4th Commandment regarding the Sabbath. God specifically commanded that man work six days but on the seventh day, he was to cease from his labors and worship Him. That the OT saints observed the Sabbath on Saturday according to their calendar cannot be taken as perpetually binding since the fulfillment (partial) of the Jewish Sabbath was to be found in the resurrection of Christ; the first day of the week vs. the last day of the week. The change to the first day was not fabricated but rather understood by the NT Church from Scripture. Likewise, the Lord's Supper transcended the OT practice due to the fulfillment of Christ's redemptive work.

All that to simply say, that what God has written should and must be sufficient in and of itself and not reduced or extended beyond what is written by the imaginations of men. (Rev. 22:18,19) as applied to the entire Bible. Those words, at least to me personally, make me shudder and practice extreme caution when interpreting Scripture. But it seems that the word "caution" has gone the way of "reverence" and "awe" in regard to both the use of Scripture and particularly worship in our day.


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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
I don't recall any injunction that specifies that wine must be red. Likewise, I do not recall an injunction that specifies that the bread must be unleavened. To add to what God has set forth in regard to the Lord's Table on the basis of speculation is to profane it...

All that to simply say, that what God has written should and must be sufficient in and of itself and not reduced or extended beyond what is written by the imaginations of men.
Precisely my thought. Either wine; either bread; but nothing in the place of bread and wine.


Meta4

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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Originally Posted by Meta4
But I have to ask, in all the places where the Bible refers to wine, is it specific as to red vs. white wine? Would white wine be acceptable?

And in regard to the bread, is either leavened or unleavened bread acceptable?
I don't recall any injunction that specifies that wine must be red. Likewise, I do not recall an injunction that specifies that the bread must be unleavened. To add to what God has set forth in regard to the Lord's Table on the basis of speculation is to profane it... yes? Methinks that one can see a similar example in regard to the 4th Commandment regarding the Sabbath. God specifically commanded that man work six days but on the seventh day, he was to cease from his labors and worship Him. That the OT saints observed the Sabbath on Saturday according to their calendar cannot be taken as perpetually binding since the fulfillment (partial) of the Jewish Sabbath was to be found in the resurrection of Christ; the first day of the week vs. the last day of the week. The change to the first day was not fabricated but rather understood by the NT Church from Scripture. Likewise, the Lord's Supper transcended the OT practice due to the fulfillment of Christ's redemptive work.

All that to simply say, that what God has written should and must be sufficient in and of itself and not reduced or extended beyond what is written by the imaginations of men. (Rev. 22:18,19) as applied to the entire Bible. Those words, at least to me personally, make me shudder and practice extreme caution when interpreting Scripture. But it seems that the word "caution" has gone the way of "reverence" and "awe" in regard to both the use of Scripture and particularly worship in our day.

I guess I approach this from an old fashioned Baptist perspective. The NT does not give a formula, or precise instructions on baptism; but, we Baptists historically have gone by example, believers baptism by immersion as we read the NT. If I transfer the same reasoning to the Lord's Supper, I come to the conclusion for myself, that red wine is the biblical example, but the question of the bread, I go with leavened bread. I researched and it seems that only the RC and old Lutherans are dogmatic on using red wine. As I worked my way through the Bible in references to wine, I can find nothing but references that show symbolism of "red" and "blood" and nowhere do I find a hint of white wine: Gen 49:11,12; Dt 32:14; Pro 23:31; Isa 49:26, 63:2; Zech 9:15; Rev 14:20 all from the NRSV. Then if I go to the non-canonical apocrypha to get a historical perspective of Jewish thought, I find the following two passages:

"The basic necessities of human life are water and fire and iron and salt and wheat flour and milk and honey, the blood of the grape and oil and clothing."
(Sir 39:26 NRSVA)

"he held out his hand for the cup and poured a drink offering of the blood of the grape; he poured it out at the foot of the altar, a pleasing odor to the Most High, the king of all."
(Sir 50:15 NRSVA)

I therefore believe red wine symbolizing blood and sacrifice is the proper element here. When it comes to the question of leaven or unleavened bread, I like how the Puritan Matthew Poole commented upon this:

"Jesus took bread; without doubt unleavened bread, for this night there was no other to be found in the house of any Jew, nor yet for seven days which began from the sunset of this night. But it will not from hence follow, that the Lord’s supper must be eaten with unleavened bread. For though our Saviour be to be imitated in his actions relating to gospel worship; yet not in such of them which had a plain reference to the Jewish worship, and were there instituted for a special reason, as unleavened bread was, to put them in mind of the haste in which they came out of Egypt. Our Saviour at this time could use no other than unleavened bread, for no other was to be had."

So I take the question of leaven related to the Old Covenant Passover symbolism that is not fitting for the New Covenant; but, the symbolism of the red wine to blood sacrifice carries though, as Jesus said: "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." Now, I do not wish to seem legalistic about this, but the question of using white grape juice instead of red, does cause me to question the reason for it and I am going to ask my Pastor about it, just as an inquiry. laugh



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Wine is prescribed because the expression "the fruit of the vine" is part of a traditional Jewish thanksgiving formula from that era. Lightfoot explained this, and I don't think any historians have reason to doubt it. Not only is the Lord's Supper a sacrament—it is also part of public worship, and therefore comes under the Regulative Principle. We are not at liberty to change what the Lord has prescribed as a sacrament and as a vital part of public worship.

Because of their connection to public worship, sacramental bread and wine are (the only) prescribed symbols of the church. Even the ubiquitous cross doesn't have the same status.

I think that whether the wine should be red or white is best determined by documented Jewish practice from the era, although I am partial to red because of the symbolism (Revelation 14 and 19 seem to indicate red wine). I'm not a historian, so I cannot provide any more information regarding this.

The argument that grape juice may be used to accommodate weaker brethren or former alcoholics is flimsy. Did the Lord, who knows all and decrees all that comes to pass, not know that these weaker brethren would be stumbled by the use of sacramental wine? Are we wiser or more compassionate than God?

The Belgic and Westminster Confession prescribe sacramental wine. Churches that subscribe to these subsidiary standards ought to practice what is prescribed in their confession.

If a former alcoholic has scruples about sacramental wine, he should abstain and wait for the wedding supper of the Lamb, where we will be able to partake of the celebration with real wine.


In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

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