AJC said:
In dialogues with non-reformed Christians a common problem I run into is that they can't get over election.
That is something that all of us have faced when speaking to non-Reformed Christians. And yet they need to be shown that they are placing their own traditions over the plain reading of Scripture. Lovingly, yes, but in the same way as we would show the charismatics their error or the dispensationalists theirs.
Out of exasperation I'm coming to the conclusion that I simply need to say: "Forget election, simply put Christ first and foremost and pray for the strength to do so!"
Why tell them to forget it? It is something that God revealed to us in His Word.
We may all agree that the Bible is filled with God's revealed truths or desire for man - God's decree or hidden truth is hinted to as well.
Hidden truth is not hinted at, it's hidden <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I would say that the doctrine of God's decrees and election is not merely "hinted at" and certainly not "hidden." Sure, we don't know everything about it, and we don't know specifically who the elect are, BUT that does not mean the doctrines aren't shown throughout the Scriptures.
But are us Reformed being overly presumptuous in focusing on the hidden truths??? - when the Bible appears pretty straightfoward in the presentation of the revealed truths for man to obey and follow. Are we turning the Bible upside down to some extent and isolating the verses that focus on God's sovereignty and elective decree which does not seem to encompass a majority of the Word - in fact if it were not for Romans 9 we would have a much more difficult time making our cases.
But the case is that Reformed people use Scriptures from throughout the Bible. The reason that Romans 9, John 6, and Ephesians 1-2 are focused on is because those are extended passages most fully dealing with the issues at hand. It doesn't mean that the sovereignty of God or election are not taught anywhere else.
Now with all this being said - I still believe in God's elective decree and that He has divinely chosen a Paul while leaving many other over to themselves. But is the Bible suppose to be presented the way we do in which the divine decree, election and predestination are at the forefront (i.e. Canons of Dordt) - Isn't that a confusing and insecurity provoking start point, especially when witnessing to those who are babes in the word or non-believers or even seasoned Christians of the non-Reformed variety.
Divinely chosen a Paul? I assume that's a typo <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You tell me, which is a gospel that fits better with the Bible, a declaration of the Gospel most pleasing to God: a gospel that makes God into a wimp who is desperately pleading for sinners to choose him by their own freewill because he is powerless? or a Gospel that speaks of God's holiness, that He doesn't have the obligation to save anyone, and yet He out of love sent Christ to die for those who would believe in Him, and that if anyone is repentant for their sins and believing in Christ, it is by the sheer grace of God alone?
Also, what do you mean by insecurity? Are you talking about insecurity of salvation? Most people tosay think they are saved because they walked an aisle or were baptized or are a member of a church. They need to be rid of a FALSE security. Their security must lie in what Christ has done on the behalf of those who believe. And true, saving faith results in good works. 1 John would be a good book to use to examine oneself to see if we are in the faith.
Once again, if it wasn't for Augustine the Reformed perspective would probably never have been taught???
I vehemently disagree. I am Reformed because of what the Bible teaches, bnot because of what Augustine wrote. That's sorta like saying "No one believed in the Trinity until Tertullian." The Trinity is believed by all true Christians, while one can be an Arminian and still be a Christian. And yet the Trinity is taught in a much less direct way than sovereignty, election, decrees of God are taught!
