I accept a lot of your criticism of me as valid. I try not to criticize others on this board so I will refrain from answering the criticisms that I don’t think are valid. I fear that we could spend too much valuable time arguing semantics for little profit. <br><br>I will try to summarize the consensus of answers that I have seen on this thread, and please correct my summary where you see error. Please reference your corrections with Bible references that show my error. My ultimate goal is to find what the Bible says.<br><br>1) The Bible does not say that a soul is joined to an egg at the moment of conception.<br>2) There are mysteries that mankind will never know, and God keeps the answers to these mysteries from us.<br>3) Knowing the time that a person gets a soul may be one of these mysteries. <br>
In reply to:[color:"blue"]1) The Bible does not say that a soul is joined to an egg at the moment of conception.
Like so many of the truths contained in Scripture, they are to be apprehended by an "Analogy of Faith", i.e., a comparison of Scripture with Scripture. Further, the Bible is sometimes mistakenly understood to be used as an encyclopedia, i.e., if one desires to know about X, then you simply go to the Table of Contents or Index and look up X where you will find the relevant passages on that subject. Further, there are truths which are to be derived from inference. But it must be insisted that a proper biblical hermeneutic be adhered to else a misinterpretation result. Thus, I can reply to your first summary in this way: It is true that there is not to be found any one specific biblical text which explicitly states "that a soul is joined to an egg at the moment of conception." However, the Bible does infer that this is the case. How so?
[*]Right from the beginning the Scripture teaches that God created man "in His own image". (cf. Gen 1:26, 27; 9:6)[*]That "imago dei" was imparted by God directly when he "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul., (Gen 2:7) thus distinguishing man from all other creatures.[*]The existence of all human beings is known unto God from eternity since all things exist only due to the fact that God has decreed (foreordained) all things from the beginning. (cf. Eph. 1:4, 9-11; Isa 46:9, 10; Ps 135:6)[*]The creation of all human beings is not the result of a "natural act" of other human beings, but rather God's providence is the proximate cause. It is God who superintends over every facet and moment of the bringing forth of the conception and eventual birth and/or death of all. (cf. Jer 1:5; Ps 139: 1, 5, 12b-16; Job 10:9-11). From these passages, I believe a sound case can be made to assert with confidence that it is God who has from eternity determined the existence of every individual person. That a person is one who is unique among the creation of God in that he is created with the "imago dei", i.e., a "soul" (pneuma). The soul is an inseparable part of man which exists (created) by God at conception. Whether a fertilized egg continues to live and grow to maturity or its life is removed, this too is included in God's eternal foreordination. The end to which each person is appointed is known only unto God Who has not chosen to reveal to man. Therefore, it would be only right that one not speculate whether a fertilized egg possesses a soul or not, for the issue is really that all men are created by God in His image and thus are ALL to be deemed "sacred".[/LIST]
In reply to:[color:"blue"]2) There are mysteries that mankind will never know, and God keeps the answers to these mysteries from us.
True. (cf. Deut 29:29; Rom 11:33-36; Job 38)
In reply to:[color:"blue"]3) Knowing the time that a person gets a soul may be one of these mysteries.
Smithca,<br><br>The Bible doesn’t speak in terms of fertilized eggs or DNA. These are scientific terms we use today. However the Bible does make it very clear that God knew us before we had our physical bodies. It also makes it very clear that he knew the days of our lives even before we had lived any of them. Just because God has permitted man to medically impregnate an egg with sperm outside the body doesn't change the fact that He's the Creator of all life and no life exists apart from His sovereign will.<br><br>Excuse me for repeating what others have already noted but have you really considered that Genesis 2:7 and Psalm 139 tells us all that we need to know about the development of our soul. He created us from the ground, He breathed life into us, He knew us before we had substance, and then as Job 10:11 tells us, He added flesh and bones in our mother's womb.<br><br>I especially like the way Matthew Henry’s comments on Psalm 139:13-16. "The Psalmist recognizes he is the work of God’s hands. He that framed the engine knows all the motions of it. God made us, and therefore no doubt he knows us; he saw us when we were in the forming, and can we be hidden from him now that we are formed? This argument he insists upon (v. 13–16): "Thou hast possessed my reins; thou art Master of my most secret thoughts and intentions, and the innermost recesses of my soul; thou not only knowest, but governest, them, as we do that which we have possession of; and the possession thou hast of my reins is a rightful possession, for thou coveredst me in my mother’s womb, that is, thou madest me (Job 10:11), thou madest me in secret. The soul is concealed form all about us. Who knows the things of a man, save the spirit of a man?’’ 1 Co. 2:11. Hence we read of the hidden man of the heart. But it was God himself that thus covered us, and therefore he can, when he pleases, discover us; when he hid us from all the world he did not intend to hide us from himself. Concerning the formation of man, of each of us, 1.The glory of it is here given to God, entirely to him; for it is he that has made us and not we ourselves. "I will praise thee, the author of my being; my parents were only the instruments of it.’’ It was done, (1.) Under the divine inspection: My substance, when hid in the womb, nay, when it was yet but in fieri—in the forming, an unshapen embryo, was not hidden from thee; thy eyes did see my substance. (2.) By the divine operation. As the eye of God saw us then, so his hand wrought us; we were his work. (3.) According to the divine model: In thy book all my members were written. Eternal wisdom formed the plan, and by that almighty power raised the noble structure. <br><br>2. Glorious things are here said concerning it. The generation of man is to be considered with the same pious veneration as his creation at first. Consider it, (1.) As a great marvel, a great miracle we might call it, but that it is done in the ordinary course of nature. We are fearfully and wonderfully made; we may justly be astonished at the admirable contrivance of these living temples, the composition of every part, and the harmony of all together. (2.) As a great mystery, a mystery of nature: My soul knows right well that it is marvellous, but how to describe it for any one else I know not; for I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the womb as in the lowest parts of the earth, so privately, and so far out of sight. (3.) As a great mercy, that all our members in continuance were fashioned, according as they were written in the book of God’s wise counsel, when as yet there was none of them; or, as some read it, and none of them was left out. If any of our members had been wanting in God’s book, they would have been wanting in our bodies, but, through his goodness, we have all our limbs and sense, the want of any of which might have made us burdens to ourselves. See what reason we have then to praise God for our creation, and to conclude that he who saw our substance when it was unfashioned sees it now that it is fashioned."<br><br><br>Wes<br>
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Dear Wes and Pilgrim, thank you for your answers to my impertinent questions. I was particularly pleased to see Pilgrim reenter the discussion because your answers have always been clear and to the point. I have gotten what I came for, that is that I have learned more about both the conservative position and what exactly the Bible says. There are some points on which I do not agree, but I do not see any benefit in debating them. Suffice it to say that where you see certainty, I see ambiguity. I have one more question, and I think that this is my last on this subject.<br><br>The number of spontaneous abortions in the world is huge. They number in the billions. There is no other natural or man-made catastrophe that comes close to affecting the same number of people. I suspect that the pharmaceutical companies ignore the issue because they do not see a profit in it. If there was funding available, studies could be done to find the causes of them. It is possible that some spontaneous abortions are caused by natural or artificial toxins. A simple change in diet or lifestyle might allow women to carry several of these eggs to term and give birth to normal babies. I believe that Christian ethics requires believers to come to the aid of those in need. In your opinion, is the Christian community remiss in not doing anything about spontaneous abortions?<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Smithca,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]The number of spontaneous abortions in the world is huge. They number in the billions. There is no other natural or man-made catastrophe that comes close to affecting the same number of people. <br><br>I believe that Christian ethics requires believers to come to the aid of those in need. In your opinion, is the Christian community remiss in not doing anything about spontaneous abortions?</font><hr></blockquote><p>What would you suggest Christians do to combat this loss of life? I believe studies are being done for those who want to be helped. In many cases pregnant women already modify their lifestyle to maintain their pregnancy. However the moral implications are quite different if someone is promoting the end of the pregnancy by whatever means. The Christian must do all that he can to preserve the sanctity of human life. <br><br><br>Wes<br>
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
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