The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Calvinism

waronthesaints,<br><br>First of all the "harshness" which some charge against biblical Calvinism, stems from their own pride and not from anything actually taught! What harshness is to be found in God reaching out and saving an undeserving, rebellious, God-hating, spiritual dead sinner out of His sheer sovereign grace and mercy? None, thank you. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img] You have not presented any BIBLICAL arguments thus far, but again we read only of sentimentalism and illogical reasoning. Let me take one item from the many things you wrote:<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Same for John 1.12,13, for it is not self-will, nor will of man, nor of the flesh, but those that received Him fulfilling God's plan of mercy and grace originating not in the will itself but in that One who first gave that will in Genesis.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Your interpretation of John 1:12, 13 is without question indefensible. It is a flat contradiction of the text. Let's look at the passage as it is written in context, shall we?<blockquote>John 1:11-13 (ASV) "He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."</blockquote>John is speaking specifically of the Jews - "his own and says that the Jews did not receive Jesus as the Christ who was prophesied, i.e., the Messiah. But there was another group, and we know that some of this other group were Jews, albeit a very small minority, who did receive Him. Now, being faithful to both Greek and English grammatical rules, we must read the next statements as identifiers (modifiers) of these "as many as who received Him . . ." to them it was given the power/ability/authority (Gk: dunamis to become children of God.[/i] Next, we read another qualifier (modifier) "who were born not. . . . but of God." Thus the grammatical rules allow and even demand that we read the text as, "To those who were born of God, to them He gave the power/authority/right to become the children of God." The phrase, "but of God" is causal not resultant. It is BECAUSE they were born of God that they received Christ. The "birth" precedes and is the proximate cause of the receiving. To say otherwise is to commit linguistic suicide and to reject the inspired words of God as the Holy Spirit moved John to write them. We can likewise exegete Eph. 2:1-5 and see that "And you did he make alive, when ye were dead . . .". Dead men don't seek. Dead men don't receive anyone. Dead men don't believe on anyone. Dead men don't hear anyone. Dead men don't speak, breath, etc.... They are DEAD! And until God, by the sovereign working of the Spirit, gives one new birth (make alive), Jh 3:5-8.<br><br>It is indefensible also to assert that man has "two wills"; one of the flesh and one of the imago dei. There is but one will which belongs to man and that will does whatever is most desirable to the person at any given moment. It is one's nature which determines what the will does. Thus, if one is born spiritually dead, then the things of the Spirit are foolishness to him and he cannot know them. In fact, the things of God are odious to the unregenerate man (dead man), says Paul. (Eph 5:17-19)<br><br>Again, in the biblical teaching of free sovereign grace, there is no room for boasting as Paul again says:<blockquote>1 Corinthians 4:7 (KJV) "For who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it]?"</blockquote><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Indeed, God chose me before the foundation of the world only because He knew I would choose Him . . .</font><hr></blockquote><p>And how is it, according to you that God "foresaw" that you would "choose Him" (Hmmm, you have already said that "choosing" is irrelevant and that "receiving" is what is important. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/bingo.gif" alt="bingo" title="bingo[/img] )? How is it that God could "see you choosing" when you had no ability to "choose"? Of course, this opens the proverbial can of worms which denies the biblical God. For it classically subverts the three major attributes of God's nature; Omnipotence, Omnipresence and Omniscience. The Scripture everywhere speaks of God's [color:red]PRE</font color=red>destination, that is He determined BEFOREHAND. But you would make God one Who [color:red]POST</font color=red>destinates, that is He determines what shall be AFTER He comes to a knowledge of something. Do you begin to see the inescapable pit which this leads into? If God only determines what shall be on the basis of what He comes to know, then it must be that there was knowledge which He was not aware of until He perceived it. Thus, Omniscience is denied. Secondly, if God determined your end on the basis of what He alleged perceived; i.e., your "choosing", then you become the sovereign and God simply reacted on the basis of your act. Well, there goes Omnipotence. And lastly, if God perceived your choosing in eternity, before you were even created, then where did God perceive this alleged "choosing" which would have to be apart from His creation? Strike three..... !! There goes God's Omnipresence. The ugly truth is that your view denies God as He has revealed Himself and contradicts the many clear and marvelous statements of His salvific plan.<blockquote>Isaiah 43:13 (ASV) "Yea, since the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who can hinder it?"<br><br>Isaiah 44:7 (ASV) "And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I established the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and that shall come to pass, let them declare."<br><br>Isaiah 46:9-10 (ASV) "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; [I am] God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not [yet] done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;"<br><br>Psalms 135:6 (ASV) "Whatsoever Jehovah pleased, that hath he done, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps;"<br><br>Daniel 4:35 (ASV) "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"</blockquote><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]One final point, I also notice a tactic of calvinism is always to provide 1001 articles to circumvent and gloss over this basic principle, not realizing that covering something up does not get rid of it, that is God's Word is not coverable.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Perhaps you are confusing this Forum with some other you are visiting? I seem to recall only 4 or 5 articles/sermons which were given to you for your benefit to read. "1001" is hardly the case. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] The truth is, that I have given you many BIBLE TEXTS as proof of my position; even exegeting some. You have offered none, although you did mention a pseudo Martin Luther, who never lived on this earth. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img]<br><br>So, why don't you begin with Scripture and just for fun, exegete John 6:44 for us. I would be very interested in reading how you handle the inspired text.<br><br>In His Grace,<br><br>