waronthesaints ,<br><br>This a little long, but I felt the need to clarify you on some of the texts. In addition, I’m leaving in few to go to camp for the week, so it will give you time to ponder on what I’ve written. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]The scripture that I use to substantiate our non-mythical free-will in God's image as preimenent, is Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. God affords us this choice to have a choice to choose..</font><hr></blockquote><p> <br>Of course the Bible assert that men must choose , but that is not the matter that is in dispute here. The issue is not whether man has a will, rather whether God affects the will and whether man can make an “uncaused” or “indifferent” choice. A passage such as Phil 2:13 clearly demonstrates that God does indeed influence the will.“13[color:blue]For it is
God who works in you, both [/b]to will[/b] and to work for his good pleasure</font color=blue>.”The Gen 3:3 passage does not teach your mythical free-will. If you still think so, please demonstrate. Neither Gen 3:3, nor any other passage teach that we are free such that we are outside Gods’ control nor is the will self-determining. Rather scripture is abundantly clear that man’s will is enslaved by his sins, the devil, and the world( i.e. Eph 2:1-4; John 8:34,44; 2 pet. 2:19; 2 Tim 2:26; Rom 6:20.etc.). Neither can man change his corrupt nature [ Jer 13:23]. Not only that but scriptures are explicit that that God can turn/influence the hearts of people as he wills as indicated above. For example, Prov. 21:1 “[color:blue]The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he[God]
turns it wherever he will</font color=blue>.” Ezra 1:1-3 “1[color:blue]In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the
LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom and also put it in writing</font color=blue>”. Here are other passages such that clearly reinforce this: psalm 105:25; Ezra 6:22, 7:27-28; Deut 2:30; Exodus 4:21,7:3,12:36;isiah 10:5-12,etc. God’s absolute sovereignty is incompatible with this mythical free-will. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"] I see
man's sovereignty and this God-given free will in God's image in Gen 1:26 ... I for one cannot deny this. It would seer my conscience. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br>[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/flee.gif" alt="flee" title="flee[/img]. Do you really mean “man’s sovereignty? Please elaborate. I hope that is just a misunderstanding on my part for there is only one who is sovereign in the universe, and that is God himself:
Rev 6:10:"They cried out with a loud voice, "O <span style="background-color:yellow;">
Sovereign Lord</span>, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?". No one here denying the passage. Were’ not denying that God did indeed create man in his ‘image’. However, this does not equate to the mythical “Free-will. What it means to be created in God’s image is expressed well by the The Westminster Confession of Faith. It states “After God had made all other creatures, He created man, male and female,with reasonable and immortal souls,
endued with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, after His own image; having the law of God written in their hearts,and power to fulfill it….”<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Under Romans 8.6 I see the flesh, that is the sin of the body and the self of the soul, having no means to come to Christ, so it is not the flesh that comes to Christ, but that God's likeness that does of Gen. 1.26 and Gen. 1.27 that when accepting God's life, receives eternal salvation. Similarly, John 6.44, without legalizing this verse, says ultimately still, before that salvation is received God ordains it, not man, therefore we must fulfill the absolute necessary condition that is well pleasing to the Lord before He ultimately gives us His life, and never before for that is His condition for the gracing us. Amen.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>I cringe how you have just tortured Romans 8:6,7 and John 6:44. John 6:44 means what it says. “NONE ONE CAN COME TO CHRIST, “UNLESS” the father draws. John 6:36,37 proves that "coming" is synonymous with "believing". Furthermore, only those that have been given by the father(i.e. the elect) will come to Christ. You say that “we must fulfill the absolute necessary condition that is well pleasing to the lord before he gives us life….”. Did you not read the Romans 8:6 passage I quoted to you? First, in the <span style="background-color:yellow;">
context</span> of that passage, Paul is expounding upon 2 types of people: those that are
unregenerate, who are described as being “
in the flesh”, and those who are
regenerate, who are described as being “
in the spirit”(Rom. 8:9). They are mutually exclusive. Please read the whole of Romans 8:1-17 because your idea about “flesh as the sin of the body” is meaningless in here and does not fit the context nor the text in question. The point that “In the spirit” is the state of Christians is further proved by verses 9-10 in which Paul says, “<br><blockquote><br>You[Christians], however, are <span style="background-color:yellow;">
not</span> in the flesh <span style="background-color:yellow;">
but in the Spirit</span>, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.<br></blockquote><br>And Romans 8:6-7 contradicts the statement you just made. “7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who
[color:red]are in the flesh cannot please God</font color=red>.” The unbeliever can do Absolutely nothing can to please god Until He/she has been “drawn”, “quickened”, “Regenerated, “made alive”, etc. etc. Regeneration is God’s work alone, as demonstrated by such passages: James 1:18; 1 pet 1:23; John 3:5-6, 1:12-13; Titus 3:5; Psalm 100:3,etc). I have demonstrated this else where against someone of similar theology as yours. <br>
Regeneration Precedes Faith<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>Same is true of 1 Cor. 2.14, that is not man's natural part that receives God, but that part which is like God that receives God, that is a free-will bestowed at creation, that can reject or accept the truth. Rejecting unto eternal damnation and accepting unto eternal life.<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>As you did with Romans 8, you missed the point of the text. The context clearly shows that Paul is making a contrast between two types of people: ‘natural man’ and ‘spiritual man’. This is not talking about different parts of man, rather the two types of people are set in opposition as in Romans 8. The natural man is the designation for the unregenerate, and the spiritual man is the regenerate. Paul uses the same Greek word translated “natural” in Jude 1:19 to the describe the false teachers, who Paul says that they are “devoid of the Spirit”; that is they are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The natural man, that is the unregenerate, thinks the things of God is “foolishness” to him. I'll finish this section with comments from Charles Hodge and hope that you'll understand the text better. He writes "Foolishness... is that which is to us absurd, insipid, powerless. When, therefore, it is said that the things of the Spirit are foolishness to the natural man, it means that they are to him absurd, insipid and distasteful...So the scriptures do not say of the natural man merely that he will not discern the things of the Spirit, because the difficulty in his case is
not in the will alone, but in his whole inward state. He cannot know them. And the reason is, Because they are spiritually discerned. That is, because they are discerned through the Spirit. Therefore those who have not the Spirit cannot discern them. If the effect of sin on the human soul is to make it blind to the truth, excellence and beauty of divine things; if, as the apostle asserts, <span style="background-color:yellow;">
the natural, or unrenewed, man is in such a state that the things of the Spirit are foolishness to him, absurd, insipid and distasteful, then it follows that he can discern them only through the Spirit. His inward state must be changed by the influence of the Spirit before he can apprehend the truth and excellence of the gospel</span>. There must be congeniality between the perceiver and the thing perceived. Only the pure in heart can see God. If our gospel be hid, says the apostle, it is hid to them that are lost. The only hope of the unrenewed, therefore, is in doing as the blind did in the days of Christ. They must go to him for spiritual discernment; and those who go to him he will in no wise cast out."<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Yes. It is harsh. This is not my God. Martin Luther understood it was grace that saves and a free-will that is graceable that is savable by saving grace.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Surely you can’t be serious about M. Luther [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile[/img]. Pilgrim has already noted to you that you must speaking of a different Martin Luther than we all know. <br>Here’s Link to the book that Pilgrim mentioned to show you the real M. Luther just in case Pilgirm’s quote was not enough for you. <br>
Bondage of theWill<br>Will the real Martin Luther please stand up. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img]<br><br>You are quite right we serve different Gods. Yours is not of scripture.<br><blockquote><br>Dan 4:34-35: I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,<br>and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; 35all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,<br>and
he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth;<br>and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?"<br><br>Isiah 46:9- 11: Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,<br>10declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, '
My counsel shall stand,<br>and I will accomplish all my purpose, 11calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country.<br>I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.<br><br>Romans 9:15 “15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it
depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy…[19] 19You will say to me then, Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"<br></blockquote><br><br>Please consider the God of the bible, and not your imagination. <br><br>In Christ,<br>Carlos<br>
