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#17611
Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:53 AM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406 |
Of course. By the way, sorry to hear of your father's death. I'm glad to hear that he knew the Lord. My wife and I have just been to visit a friend in hospital who is dying of cancer. What the disease has done to her body is pretty horrific. Please pray for Margie as she is not a Christian, but it is clear that the Holy Spirit is working in her life as she is afraid to die and wants to know more about God and Jesus Christ. My wife shared the gospel with her and we prayed for her salvation (in her presence). We've given her a book by John Blanchard, "Ultimate Questions". (Heard of it?) (Fred) I appreciate the sentiment about my dad's death. That was way back in 96. Just out of curiosity, under your view of libertarian autonomy, is it even proper for the holy spirit to work in your friend's life? Would not God be meddling with her will, influencing it in some direction? Yes, I am quite familiar with Blanchard (he's a Calvinist by the way). I will attempt to be brief. I see you are deluged with a lot of responses to others. I believe, however, that you may have misunderstood my point about Leigh's death because I am not suggesting "that it is cruel of God to allow anyone to die at all". Perhaps you will understand my point if I ask the following questions: (fred) So the issue with you is the means by which God brings about the person's death? God is not allowed morally to bring about a person's death by the hands of sinners? Say for instance the two fellows beheaded in Iraq this week? (i) Did God foreknow what would happen to Leigh, and permitted it? Yes, he not only fore saw what would happen, he ordained it. (ii). Did God foreordain the means to Leigh's death? (Remember, according to Calvinists, foreordination is not based on God's foreknowledge because God is the First Cause of "whatsoever will come to pass".)Yes, and it is not just "according to Calvinist;" it is biblical doctrine. God cannot foreknow something that he did not ordain. That suggest there are events that developed in time apart from God's creative act. (iii) Did God bring about the decisions of the kidnappers to murder Leigh? If by "bring about the decisions" you mean to say, "Did God force them against their will" then no, God did not force them. He did not force the kidnappers to murder Leigh anymore than he forced the Assyrians to go into Israel, slaughter the nation of people more cruelly than what Leigh suffered (Isaiah 10). Moreover, the Assyrians were the chosen means by which to bring about judgment upon the northen kingdom. (iv) If God did not foreordain the kidnapper's decision to murder Leigh, could they have chosen otherwise? No, that would suggest that they could have thwarted God's appointed time for Leigh's death, something that had been determined in eternity past, before he created the world. The question could also be asked of you in regards to a biblical example. Peter specifically states that Jesus was delivered up by the predetermined and ordained purposes of God to be murdered at the hands of the Jews and the Romans. In light of the necessity of fulfilled prophecy, could Pilate had chosen to release Jesus inspite of the Jews demand to crucify him? What about Joseph's brothers who sold him into salvery. Seeing that it was God's preordained intention to save a nation of people alive (Genesis 50:19,20), could Joseph's brothers chosen to be good toward their brother and not mean evil against him? Their evil act was clearly the vehicle God used to save the people. Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
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Entire Thread
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MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:20 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:01 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:45 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:25 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:47 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:07 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:21 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:37 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:40 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:28 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:58 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:05 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:57 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Peter
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:42 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:10 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:23 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:07 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:36 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:25 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:51 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:02 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:37 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:17 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:54 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 5:59 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:21 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:37 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:57 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:02 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:47 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:24 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:38 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:06 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:29 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:38 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:38 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:29 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:44 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:04 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:23 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:48 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:27 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:41 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:11 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:22 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:09 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:14 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:37 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:03 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:16 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:01 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:24 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:43 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:38 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:07 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:02 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:08 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:14 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:39 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:52 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:19 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:06 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:53 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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emtully
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:55 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:42 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:51 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:13 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:32 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:59 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Henry
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:01 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:09 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Henry
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Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:48 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:33 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:46 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:51 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:11 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:18 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:59 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:49 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:37 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:06 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:05 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:53 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:44 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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janean
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:36 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:17 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:24 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:02 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Calvinator
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:33 PM
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