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#17597
Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Needs to get a Life
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Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615 |
Thank you for your reply <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" /> MJM asserts,
For me, the weakest link in Calvinism was their view of God's exhaustive divine sovereignty in that God, by his divine decree, had determined and foreordained whatsoever comes to pass. Reformed theologian, John Frame, says, "God brings about our free decisions. He does not foreordain merely what happens to us, but also what we choose to do" (No Other God, 2001, p. 65). Notice that Frame says, "free decisions". Here he has stated an oxymoron. How can our decisions be free if God determines what decisions we should make? How can God be God and not know all things? If He knows them (which He does) and permits them (yes free decisions--), how can He not be the Determiner (in some form) of them all (compare: Lk 6:45 w/ Prov 21:1 & Ps 33:5 and then Rom 9:17 w/ Ex 9:16, 12:36, 14:4, and of course, Prov 16:1, 9; 19:21, etc.)? As Frame further says (page 65, footnote), “Inference may be made on the basis of God’s exhaustive knowledge of the future. If God knows our free decisions before we are born, then certainly we are not the ultimate source of them.” Do you believe in a god who is not all-knowing or have an exhaustive knowledge of the future (called, open theism)? Is this your theology, if so please provide personal biblical proof and exegesis? MJM asserts,
Perhaps James Sire's description of Deism best describes Calvinism's deterministic worldview:
... Fenelon put his finger on a major problem within deism: human beings have lost their ability to act significantly. We can only be puppets. If an individual has personality, it must then be a type which does not include the element of self-determination. (The Universe Next Door, 1997, p. 45) Man is not a puppet, but, the Scripture also teaches that God is not a puppet, but you make Him one with you definition of free decisions, for God in your estimation must not know the future and be at the unending, but conflicting free-will (Arminian) of all His creatures…. How can there be any order in the universe? Please compare what you and Fenelon assert with Acts 2:23. Your problem basically appears in the rest of your post to deal with the problem of evil—which is of course a mystery as is the freedom of the will and the sovereignty of God, the Trinity, etc. Thus, let me attempt to shed some light on this by asking you a question(s). If God cannot prevent the corruption of rational beings, then how is He able to make some creatures incorruptible (glorified saints, angels)? If He can, but chooses not to, then the problem of evil recurs at a different level: why did He choose not to prevent the fall? Will you be free to sin when you get to Heaven?
Reformed and Always Reforming,
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Entire Thread
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MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:20 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:01 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:45 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:25 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:47 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:07 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:21 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:37 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:40 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:28 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:58 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:05 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:57 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Peter
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:42 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:10 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:23 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:07 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:36 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:25 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:51 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:02 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:37 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:17 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:54 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 5:59 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:21 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:37 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:57 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:02 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:47 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:24 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:38 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:06 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:29 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:38 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:38 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:29 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:44 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:04 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:23 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:48 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:27 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:41 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:11 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:22 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:09 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:14 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:37 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:03 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:16 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:01 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:24 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:43 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:38 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:07 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:02 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:08 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:14 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:39 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:52 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:19 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:06 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:53 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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emtully
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:55 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:42 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:51 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:13 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:32 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:59 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Henry
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:01 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:09 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Henry
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Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:48 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:33 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:46 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:51 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:11 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:18 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:59 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:49 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:37 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:06 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:05 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:53 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:44 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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janean
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:36 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:17 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:24 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:02 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Calvinator
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:33 PM
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