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Correct, "world" (Gk. kosmos) has a variety of meanings in John's writings. It may mean Gentile nations in John 11:51-52 and Revelation 5:9-10, but there is no indication of this usage in John's first epistle. Instead, John uses the term to denote the condition of the human race in opposition to God: the sinful desires of the flesh (2:15-17), separated from God and hostile to the children of God (3:1, 13), belonging to the hostile forces of deceiving spirits (4:1ff), under the control of the evil one (5:19). It is to this "world", John writes, that God the Father sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to be the Saviour of it (4:9) and to die as an atoning sacrifice for their sins (2:2; 4:10). John repeats: "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Saviour of the world" (4:14). (fred) Yes, these are Picirilli's categories if I can recall from his section in his book on the atonement. I would agree with his assessment of the use of Kosmos. However, he does not interact with the complete syntactical and grammatical nuiances of the text, or fully with those who would react to his conclusions. That leaves his position vunerable to significant criticism. There are two major ones I mentioned in my review of his book. First is the word "propitiation." It has grammatical implications when understanding the word "world." Granted, I do not see the apostle John specifically equating "world" with the "elect only" as some Calvinist are want to do. Rather, I think it expresses the extent and scope of God's love and propitiation: it is to the whole world of men. But that is in comparrison with one small group that John is writing. That is his point. Picirilli never studies out fully the theological concept of propitiation in his work and in providing a fraction of the data, he leaves his theological conclusions of universality exposed to some fundamental flaws. If it is a wrath appeasing sacrifice, which all Arminians affirm (pre-Grotius), then that means all of God's wrath against the world has been satisfied. But we know that cannot be true from the totality of scripture. Many sinners still go to hell to endure eternal wrath. The position you advocated ulitmately implies a universalist conclusion, rather than one that is squarely biblical. You made allusion to arguing this way in the past during your Calvinist days. How would you argue now while holding to the biblical satisfaction view of the atonement? Unless you hold to Grotius governmental view? An additional difficulty not considered by Picirilli is John's usage of world in relationship to his use of it when relating to Christ's death through out all his writings. The grammatical phrase in 1 John 2:2 reads verbatim as John 11:51-52. That is a significant passage that cannot be glossed over by the Arminian. In the same way that Christ was going to die for the children of Israel, he was going to die for all the children of God spread abroad. To say that John never implied the scope of Christ's redeeming death to be all gentiles of every nation only, but instead, extend the scope of kosmos to mean every person with out exception period, does violence not only to John's intentions in his Gospel, 3 epistles and Revelation, but to the entire theology of Christ's atoning sacrifice. Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
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Entire Thread
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MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:20 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:01 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:45 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:25 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:47 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:07 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:21 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:37 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:40 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:28 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:58 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:05 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:57 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Peter
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:42 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:10 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:23 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:07 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:36 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:25 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:51 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:02 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:37 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:17 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:54 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 5:59 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:21 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:37 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:57 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:02 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:47 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:24 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:38 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:06 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:29 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:38 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:38 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:29 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:44 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:04 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:23 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:48 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:27 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:41 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:11 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:22 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:09 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:14 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:37 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:03 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:16 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:01 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:24 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:43 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:38 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:07 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:02 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:08 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:14 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:39 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:52 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:19 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:06 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:53 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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emtully
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:55 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:42 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:51 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:13 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:32 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:59 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Henry
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:01 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:09 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Henry
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Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:48 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:33 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:46 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:51 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Pilgrim
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:11 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:18 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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J_Edwards
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Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:59 AM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:49 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:37 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Tom
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:06 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:05 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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fredman
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Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:53 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:44 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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janean
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:36 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:17 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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MarieP
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:24 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:02 PM
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Re: MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible
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Calvinator
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Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:33 PM
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