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beloved57 said:

again , you don`t get the point, believing a false gospel only proves at that time you are not yet in a converted state. <snip>

...you and pilgrim and some of the rest, not robin though , have twisted what I have said.

I find it interesting that you claim Pilgrim and some of the rest, not Robin though , have twisted what you have said. Let's review Robin's remarks and see how they are different.

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Robin wrote:

"I too was regenerated, converted, adopted, sanctified, and sealed long before I discovered and converted to Calvinism."


So how does his testimony find acceptance with you when you doubted Pilgrims? Robin doesn't state he understood the doctrines of grace nor was he familiar with TULIP at the time of his conversion.

In your reply to Pilgrim's testimony you wrote: "You still have not convinced me that you heard it (refering to the true Gospel) back then when you said you first believed. Believed what ? You did not believe christ died for his people like it was prohesied. You did not believe in your depravity and hopelessness , you did not believe in sovereign grace, you did not believe Jesus was God. You basically heard that christ died for sinners,aand you felt bad about your sins."

Those are strong words. How is Pilgrim's testimony different than Robins?

You also wrote about your own experience in an earlier reply. You wrote: "I myself was religous and confessed a false christ of arminism in 1976, God brought me into a saving knowledge of the True christ in 1988. i had been to bible college and all that, but I count all dung like paul did, when the excellency of the right knowledge of the true christ flooded my soul...amen and amen."

So if I understand you correctly you're saying that even though you were a confessing Christian holding to Arminian doctrine that you weren't saved until you came to understand Calvinism. I think many Christians start out their pilgimage holding to some form of semi-pelagionism or even some other doctrinal error only later in their Christian life to discover that the Scriptures teach the depravity of man and the unconditional election of God. So then they abandon their former misunderstanding (count them rubbish) and grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. This doesn't mean they weren't elect or saved from the beginning only that they lacked understanding.

I don't think anyone here has a desire to twist anything you've written. It seems you've done a good job of that yourself. Surely you can tell this by the replies you're receiving. I think there has been a real effort to listen to you and respond with appropriate comments.

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Now Robin went on to write:

"I would like to believe that what Beloved57 is trying to say is that sooner or later those who are truly regenerate inevitably become Calvinists, as surely as the regenerate inevitably confess Christ as Lord openly."

Has Robin understood you correctly? Is that what needs to be said?

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Robin goes on to write:

"But reading post after post from Beloved57, he appears to be saying that a person has neither heard nor responded to Christ at all until and unless they were presented with the Five Points of Calvinism. Anything less is, to Beloved57, a false gospel and thus anyone who is not Calvinist isn't really saved.

You can't have it both ways. But the point is that belief in Calvinism does not save anyone. The gospel is a message about Jesus, not a technical manual describing how His work is applied to the elect; in what order the various aspects of salvation occur in time; when and how the Father chose the Elect, etc. The gospel is not a message about justification by faith, but that message about Jesus. When that message is received and believed by God-given faith resulting from regeneration, a person is converted and truly eternally saved. Even if they don't understand all the technical manuals.

Ligten up, Beloved57!"

How may I ask is that any different than what I hear Pilgrim, Joe K, J.Edwards, Paul, and Doulos saying?


Wes