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Re: Consider this Josh
#742
Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:20 AM
Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:20 AM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Dear Susan,
Yes, I have in fact studied the Bible through looking for what it has to say on the subject. I don't rely on just one verse to back me up, I simply use it here primarily because it is probably the clearest and least refutable passage concerning falling away.
You may wonder how I can reconcile MY beliefs with the passages you brought up. Glad you asked.
John 15 - I agree.
"He doesn't say he used to know them and then they were lost, he says he never knew them."
He says MANY will say to me in that day. Just because there are a bunch of people who never were saved trying to convince Jesus that they were does not mean that there will be no people who actually were saved and now are not. In Hebrews 6:4-6, Paul actually describes some who already did fall away.
1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."
Upon closer examination, the meaning of this verse becomes clear. What is the meaning of the word "manifest?" It of course means to make plain or visible. People departing from Christ is not visually recognizable, but people leaving the body of Christ is. So these went out from among the body of Christ that it might be manifest that they were never truly a part of it. This does not imply that one who truly is a part of Christ's body cannot turn away from Him and be lost.
You wrote: Jesus promises he will never leave us or forsake us.
But recall that God's promises are conditional. Consider those to whom He originally spoke those words:
Deuteronomy 4:31 "For the LORD thy God is a merciful God; he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them."
But He also said,
Deu 31:16-17 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?"
So God's promise not to leave or forsake us is conditional, for He certainly will forsake us if we forsake Him. As 2 Chronicles 15:2 puts it,
"And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."
You wrote: "He has the power to keep us safe to the end."
I agree. But I believe that we must continue to abide in Christ for Him to keep us. The scripture says that we are kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:5), but that faith can be made "shipwreck" (1 Timothy 1:19).
John 14:16, yes the Spirit was given to the followers of Christ to abide with them forever. But this promise is also conditional. Remember King Saul, who grieved God so much that the Holy Spirit departed from him (1 Samuel 16:14).
You wrote: "What kind of Savior can you offer people if He is unable to keep you till the end?"
While I do believe that our power to stand comes from Christ, I also believe that man also has a responsibility in accepting Christ and abiding in Him, I see no scripture to the contrary.
God wrote: Isaiah 49:15 "Can a woman forget her nursing child, And not have compassion on the son of her womb? Surely they may forget, Yet I will not forget you. 49:16 See, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands; Your walls are continually before Me.
But He also wrote: "As I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence." (Jeremiah 22:24)
I am very happy to hear about the woman you mentioned. My wife's great-grandmother was much the same way (except that she had been a Christian her whole life). Good questions though. I hope that even if you don't agree with me, you can at least understand why I believe the way I do.
In Christ, Josh
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Entire Thread
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Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:42 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Pilgrim
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Wed Jun 19, 2002 5:26 PM
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There cannot be two books of life
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:36 PM
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Re: There cannot be two books of life
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Pilgrim
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Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:29 PM
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Protestant doesn't necessarily mean Calvinist
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:20 PM
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Re: Protestant doesn't necessarily mean Calvinist
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:54 PM
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That doesn't address the issue
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:51 PM
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Re: That doesn't address the issue
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:42 PM
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Re: That doesn't address the issue
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 3:44 PM
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A Minor Point
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:13 PM
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Re: There cannot be two books of life
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Wes
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Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:17 PM
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Changing a book doesn't change God
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:44 PM
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Ordinances Annulled
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:56 PM
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Re: Ordinances Annulled
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:32 PM
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Consider this Josh
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 12:18 AM
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Re: Consider this Josh
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 4:20 PM
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Re: Consider this Josh
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:56 PM
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Re: Consider this Josh
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 27, 2002 2:57 AM
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A consideration for you
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 01, 2002 3:30 PM
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Sanctification
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lazarus
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Mon Jul 01, 2002 5:12 PM
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Sanctification in Hebrews 10:29
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:28 PM
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Original Sin = No Free Will
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Wes
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:46 PM
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You misunderstand my position brother
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:19 PM
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Re: You misunderstand my position brother
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Wes
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:35 PM
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Re: You misunderstand my position brother
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:54 PM
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Re: You misunderstand my position brother
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Wes
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Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:04 AM
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Re: You misunderstand my position brother
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:25 PM
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Re: You misunderstand my position brother
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Ehud
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Tue Jul 09, 2002 12:12 AM
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The greatest commandment
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:16 PM
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Re: You misunderstand my position brother
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Wes
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 1:15 AM
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Ryle on Assurance
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 1:10 PM
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Re: Ryle on Assurance
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Wes
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 4:47 PM
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Justification and sanctification are inseparable
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:22 PM
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Justification and sanctification are inseparable but distinct
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 10:42 PM
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The sovereignty of God
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:20 PM
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Re: The sovereignty of God
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Wes
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Fri Aug 09, 2002 12:54 PM
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Meaning of Nothing
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:00 PM
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Meaning of "separate"
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 01, 2002 4:41 PM
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More comments to consider
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 02, 2002 12:40 AM
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John Gill's commentary
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:39 PM
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Re: Meaning of "separate"
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:52 AM
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Re: Meaning of "separate"
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:27 PM
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Re: Meaning of "separate"
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 09, 2002 3:09 AM
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Re: Meaning of "separate"
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:51 PM
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Re: Meaning of "separate"
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lazarus
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 3:55 PM
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What God wills
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Anonymous
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:05 AM
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Re: What God wills
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Ehud
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:28 PM
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Re: What God wills
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Anonymous
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:57 PM
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Re: What God wills
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lazarus
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:43 PM
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Conditions and works
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Anonymous
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Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:10 PM
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Re: Conditions and works
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lazarus
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Tue Oct 01, 2002 11:57 PM
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God not a respecter...
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lazarus
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Sat Jun 29, 2002 11:57 PM
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Re: God not a respecter...
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:19 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Ricky
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:26 AM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:38 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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J_Edwards
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Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:41 PM
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One may lose more than the tree of life
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:24 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Ricky
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:32 AM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Kez
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:43 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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chestnutmare
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:06 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:38 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:54 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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J_Edwards
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Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:43 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:02 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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J_Edwards
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Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:13 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Tom
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Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:13 AM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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carlos
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:44 PM
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Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:18 PM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:18 AM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:12 PM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 4:49 AM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:56 PM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:37 AM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:16 PM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 09, 2002 2:47 AM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:53 PM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:46 AM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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carlos
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:17 PM
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Merits vs. Conditions
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:54 PM
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Re: Election....
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carlos
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 12:23 PM
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Re: Election....
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:14 PM
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Re: Election....
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carlos
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 4:37 PM
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Re: Election....
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carlos
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 3:23 PM
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Re: Election....
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:05 PM
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BUSY....
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carlos
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:24 PM
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Re: perseverance
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carlos
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:07 PM
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Re: perseverance
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:12 PM
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The Good Shepherd?
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Anonymous
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Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:24 PM
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You sorely misjudge me
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:38 PM
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Re: You sorely misjudge me
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lazarus
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 3:21 PM
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In reply...
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:30 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Anonymous
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Fri Aug 09, 2002 12:42 AM
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Re: In reply...
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Anonymous
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Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:19 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Anonymous
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Wed Oct 02, 2002 6:15 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Anonymous
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Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:52 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Ehud
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Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:54 PM
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Some questions
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Anonymous
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Sun Aug 04, 2002 11:20 PM
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Some answers
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:26 PM
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Re: perseverance
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carlos
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Sun Jul 21, 2002 3:03 AM
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Forgot "DO NOT"
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carlos
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Sun Jul 21, 2002 2:16 PM
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Hope he returns
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 22, 2002 1:08 PM
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Haven't left, just been busy
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 2:00 PM
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Re: Haven't left, just been busy
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 5:10 PM
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Re: perseverance
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:01 PM
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Rebuttal on Perseverance
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 1:57 PM
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Re: Rebuttal on Perseverance
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fredman
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:14 PM
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In reply...
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Anonymous
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:09 AM
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Re: In reply...
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fredman
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Mon Aug 26, 2002 6:25 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Anonymous
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Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:06 PM
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Re: In reply...
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fredman
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Wed Oct 02, 2002 5:56 PM
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conditional salvation and God's warnings
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Anonymous
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Wed Apr 02, 2003 4:53 PM
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Re: conditional salvation and God's warnings
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carlos
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Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:49 PM
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Re: conditional salvation and God's warnings
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fredman
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Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:25 AM
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Re: Merits vs. Conditions
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carlos
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 3:21 PM
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Glorification
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:10 PM
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Re: Glorification
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carlos
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 7:55 AM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:18 PM
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Redirection
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:25 PM
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You read between the lines
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:00 PM
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Re: You read between the lines
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J_Edwards
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:38 PM
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How a man is saved
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:08 PM
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Re: How a man is saved
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J_Edwards
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:27 PM
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What "save yourselves" actually means
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:55 PM
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Josh You Are Soooooo Confused
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J_Edwards
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:30 PM
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In reply...
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:49 PM
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Re: In reply...
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J_Edwards
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Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:04 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Ehud
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Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:47 PM
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Resisting God
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Paul_S
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:31 AM
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Re: Resisting God
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:01 PM
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Ambiguity and Contradictions
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Paul_S
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:28 PM
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Clarification
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:53 PM
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Contradictions vs. Comfort
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Paul_S
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Sat Jun 29, 2002 4:10 AM
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Your comfort must be scriptural
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Anonymous
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Wed Jul 03, 2002 6:45 PM
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Re: Your comfort must be scriptural
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lazarus
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 12:45 PM
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Re: Your comfort must be scriptural
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carlos
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Sat Jul 06, 2002 2:57 AM
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Conditions vs. Performance
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:44 PM
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Getting personal
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:19 PM
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Re: Getting personal
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:06 PM
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Re: Your comfort must be scriptural
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Anonymous
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 5:21 PM
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Re: Your comfort must be scriptural
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Pilgrim
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 9:39 PM
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What else could Saul do...?
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:43 PM
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Re: What else could Saul do...?
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:11 PM
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Resisting the Holy Spirit
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:03 PM
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Re: Resisting the Holy Spirit
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 7:50 PM
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Re: Resisting the Holy Spirit
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Anonymous
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 5:16 AM
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Recreated or Born Again?
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Wes
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 10:10 PM
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Re: Recreated or Born Again?
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 1:59 PM
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Re: Resisting God
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lazarus
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 4:25 PM
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Redirection
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:13 PM
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Re: Resisting God
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Tom
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Sun Jul 21, 2002 5:59 PM
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Re: Resisting God
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:01 PM
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Re: Resisting God
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Pilgrim
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 4:48 PM
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Joshism & Revelation 22:19
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J_Edwards
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:04 AM
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Take God's warnings seriously
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:40 PM
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Josh you need to repent
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J_Edwards
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:57 PM
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Josh if you are coorect THEN
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J_Edwards
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 12:54 AM
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Re: Josh if you are coorect THEN
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:03 PM
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Re: Josh if you are coorect THEN
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J_Edwards
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Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:54 AM
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Right...
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:57 PM
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Re: Right...
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J_Edwards
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:54 PM
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Hebrews 6
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:52 PM
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Re: Hebrews 6
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J_Edwards
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 10:03 PM
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Re: Hebrews 6
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:32 PM
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Re: Hebrews 6
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J_Edwards
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 8:51 PM
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Re: Hebrews 6
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carlos
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:36 PM
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Re: Hebrews 6
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J_Edwards
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:53 AM
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Re: Hebrews 6
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carlos
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 7:01 PM
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The Grip of God
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Anonymous
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:56 PM
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Re: Josh you need to repent
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Anonymous
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:56 PM
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Re: Josh you need to repent
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J_Edwards
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:44 PM
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Re: Josh you need to repent
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Anonymous
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 11:31 PM
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Josh
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Anonymous
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 11:43 PM
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Re: Josh
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 10:07 AM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 12:40 PM
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Re: Josh
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 1:49 PM
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Re: Josh
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Pilgrim
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:38 PM
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Re: Josh
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:40 PM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 6:44 PM
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Re: Josh
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Pilgrim
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 8:28 PM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:22 PM
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Re: Josh
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:07 PM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Wed Aug 07, 2002 11:33 AM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:20 AM
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Re: Josh
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:23 AM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Fri Oct 11, 2002 2:49 PM
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Re: Josh
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Ehud
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Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:19 PM
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Re: Josh
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lazarus
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Sat Oct 12, 2002 10:50 PM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Sun Aug 04, 2002 10:41 PM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 6:31 PM
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Re: Josh
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Pilgrim
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 8:12 PM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Fri Aug 02, 2002 4:37 PM
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Re: Josh
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lazarus
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Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:02 PM
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Re: Josh
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carlos
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Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:55 PM
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The foreknowledge and sovereignty of God
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:17 PM
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In my defense...
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:14 PM
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Re: In my defense...
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:50 PM
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In reply...
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Anonymous
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:17 PM
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Re: In reply...
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J_Edwards
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 7:55 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Anonymous
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Tue Oct 01, 2002 4:35 PM
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Re: In reply...
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J_Edwards
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Sun Oct 13, 2002 1:36 PM
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Re: In my defense...
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fredman
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 3:09 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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li0scc0
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Wed Apr 02, 2003 5:21 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:32 PM
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Re: Changing a book doesn't change God
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042Dave
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Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:10 PM
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