SWW STATES: [color:red]Josh says that he believes that no one can come to God unless God enables him. In this he is right. Where he is in error though is that he believes that it is because of his persevering in the faith, and not voluntarily walking away that he will continue to the end. He thinks a true Christian can lose his salvation. I would not assume to know if Josh is or is not a Christian. I do believe he is in error against the plain teaching of scripture. I know that there are Christians who lack assurance of salvation who are truly saved, but perhaps have been influenced by false teaching. I am afraid that this is what has happened to Josh. If he is a true child of God, God is able show him the truth and make this clear to him.

Letís look a little closer SWW! (you will need to re-read all the posts above/below to get their full context). The list is not comprehensive, but enough to give you a general gist:

Quotes by JoshT

[color:red]Against, Perseverance of God in the Saints and Godís sovereignty:

1. This does not guarantee that a believer cannot walk away from God. If this did happen, that person would be cut off from by God the Father (John 15), for He is sovereign and has the right to do so with what is His.

Here God is NOT sovereign in His power of salvation, for one may walk away and ONLY then is God seen to be sovereign to execute justice??? Thus, JoshT sees himself kept by his own works, which is denied in Scripture: Rom 11: 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

2. And yes, Christ promises believers His new name. And? He also promises us eternal life, but the promises only apply to those who do not fall away.

So, I am saved today, the next hour I am lost, but now I pray and I am saved again, Oíh, just sinned again, I am now lost, I pray an hour later and I am saved againÖÖ.I go in and out of eternity??? SO God is only sovereign in salvation when I obey??? This is works righteousness!!!

3. As far as what "draw" means. Yes, I am well aware that God's conviction and pulling us towards Christ are very strong, but nothing in scripture indicates that He cannot be resisted, as I pointed out from Acts 7:21.

Here God is seen as VERY strong, but not sovereign??? Thus, once again MANĒS sovereignty and Godís puppetry is exalted!!

4. He recreated me by His grace, but He also requires that I continue in it (Acts 13:43).

Salvation by GRACE plus CONTINUAL WORKS. And of course OUR sovereignty in the matter is greater than Godís as seen by the examples above???

5. I said that there were conditions if a person would be given to ChristÖ. God foresees our choices, not makes our choices, and it is on this basis that He chooses us so that we can accept Him.

Works Righteousness!

[color:red]Works are exalted above grace:

1. I believe that God gives a person to Christ when they humble themselves and repent when convicted by the Holy Spirit. This passage does not say that a person cannot resist the Holy Spirit's conviction. In fact, the scriptures affirm that this already occurs. Act 7:51 "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

We will not HUMBLE OURSELVES or REPENT (2 Tim 2:24-26) until changed BY the Holy Spirit, as PaulÖ.. The unsaved do resist UNTIL THEY ARE MADE WILLING in the day of HIS POWER (but this is far more than just conviction), and the scriptures teach that all the elect will finally and fully be saved and not resist ultimately to their own destruction for Christ will not lose even one of His elect!.

2. I too believe that a man cannot be saved unless God draws him first. And just as God's many promises of blessing to Israel (Deuteronomy 7:13, 30:16 ect...) were contingent on their obedience to the voice of God, so is the promise of the resurrection of the righteous.

FAITH plus CONTINUAL OBEDIENCE = salvation? But, if one is truly saved he will desire to obey and has been granted the grace to do so. Not all Israel was elect!

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

3. The first premise is only partially correct, for while God does desire that men be saved, He also desires that they do so willingly.

So, manís will is SOVEREIGN? Man does accept Godís grace willingly, but they ONLY become willing in the DAY OF HIS POWER.

4. Yielding to God is not a work, just as believing in God is not a work.

Thus JoshTís order of salvation, I YIELD, and then GOD RESPONDS. So God is my puppet??

[color:red]Denial of Godís elective purpose in salvation:

1. The Bible never indicates that God is determined to irresistably draw anyone to Him, He does wish to draw people to Himself, and He no doubt could do it irresistably if that were His will, but this is not indicated in scripture.

So election does not exist?

2. I see nothing in the scripture to indicate that a man cannot fully and finally resist the Holy Spirit (they are only elect if they do not). I also see plenty of proof that they can fall away afterwards.

May God have mercy and give JoshT grace!


Reformed and Always Reforming,