Dear Carlos,<br><br>IRT:<br>"No in the sense that they are yet, but shall be. See Romans 8:29-30, Goes from Godís actions in eternity past (Foreknew, Predestination), to actions in time( Calling, Justifiaction), to a future action(Glorification). True believers will see their glorification."<br><br>The fact that believers will experience glorification does not preclude conditions on this statement. God's promises are not without conditions; Acts 2:21 says that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. This must of course be understood in the context of the rest of scripture, for not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" shall enter His kingdom. So the fact that we are to be glorified does not negate the condition of persevering in the faith (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) and continuing in the grace of God (Acts 13:43); so this passage does not really prove or disporove eternal security.<br><br>IRT:<br>"Thus, Roms 29-30 is the basis of why Romans 8:28 can says all things work together for 'GOOD' to those who love God, who have been CALLED ACCORDING to HIS PURPOSE... So I ask, is Ďfalling away Ďa good thingí to those who have been called???? If that is case, I see no force or the logic behind the statement that Paul ends with in the 8th chapter, that NOTHING in ALL of creation can SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD."<br><br>Well, "all things" refers not to what the person does or decides, but his circumstances. A believer who had rejected the gospel years before but accepts it later was obviously not affected by the former in a positive way, so falling away (which would be a decision, not a circumstance) would not be one of the things that was addressed in Romans 8. Also notice to whom the passage in Romans applies, not only to those who are called, but who love God. It is made quite plain in the scripture that all who love God are born of God and know God (1 Corinthians 8:3, 1 John 4:7,); but Jesus also indicated that in the latter days, the love of many would wax cold (Matthew 24:12). So if a believer lets his heart grow hard and forsakes the agape love of Christ, then it becomes clear that a) he is no longer saved, and b) all things will not work together for his good. Also, the fact that nothing can separate us from God does not mean that we cannot walk away. Some have argued that our own wills then could not separate us from God (I have addressed this issue elsewhere on the board), but then again, it is not our will that cuts an apostate off from Christ, but God the Father (John 15).<br><br>IRT:<br>"Does not a Christianís life begin with regeneration & conversion. Is this not a work of God? Does not Phil 1:6 says that 'that HE[GOD] who BEGAN a GOOD work in you WILL carry it on to COMPLETION UNTIL the day of Christ Jesus.'"<br><br>The statement that God will complete us in Christ is a conditional statement. For while God is not unfaithful to change us from glory to glory, He does not force this change, but requires that one be a willing vessel. 2 Peter 1:5-11 shows that it is possible for a man not be yielded to God so that the Holy Spirit can work the fruits thereof in him. So yes, God does labor faithfully to complete a good work in us, but He will not do so with a hardened heart. But if we open our ears to Him, then we too can have confidence as Paul did in the Philippians, that God will complete His work in us.<br><br>IRT:<br>"The believers are sealed for the day of redemption and have the Holy Spirit as His arrabon (downpayment), 'guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession (eph 1:14)'" <br><br>The Holy Spirit is God's seal on each believer, and truly is a guarantee of a Godly inheritance on all who have Him. But just because one is sealed by the Spirit does not mean that God may not remove His seal if a person turns away from Him. My posts to Susan detail further why I believe that this can happen. So really, this scripture does not affect the doctrine of conditional salvation.<br><br>IRT:<br>"Also I disagree with your comparison of Luciferí, and the believers Glorificatino in Heaven."<br><br>I did not compare Lucifer to believer's glorification in heaven, but the glory which believers do share with Christ presently (2 Thessalonians 1:12 - sorry about the confusion). I am trying to say that just because we are glorified with the Son on earth, does not mean that we cannot fall just as Lucifer did. But as far as what happens after we reach immortality, I am in agreement with you, for the old sin nature will be completely destroyed and supplanted by the new nature of Christ. Praise God!<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh