The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Trinity Doctrine

Dear Pilgrim, J Edwards and Semper,

This is (my) recap, comments... (and after this... it’s all I really can say.) I’ll read any rebuttals... but today at least, I can’t imagine what else I can say. My intention and desire is ONLY for the TRUTH. Disagree, of course, if you wish/will. It benefits no one for a circular ‘debate’ to ensue on this (either.)


***And I want to Clarify that I am NOT a ‘One-ness Pentecostal’ (NOT)... who at first glance appear as monotheists... but break down the ‘One’ God into modes of manifestation... Old Covenant, New, and Pentecost/Holy Spirit... thus tounges and latter rain, etc. I do not know of ANY Denomination that states ‘ONE’ (and means it) that Does NOT Deny Jesus Christ, by defining him as NOT the Father. So... the Denomination I am in is only one of other scattered believers (who knows how many... and where they’ve been, etc.) who have come to the same conclusion IN SPIRIT.... That Jesus Christ is FULLY and Completely God. ***


Kathy said:

Pilgrim Answered: You must understand the purpose/intent of the Athanasian Creed, in fact ALL of the Creeds and Confessions written by the Church (**** are you serious??? ****) and in doing so, that should satisfactorily answer your question. [color:"0000FF"]Not satisfactory.... but it just gets thicker... and curiouser by the minute. Were they inspired by the Holy Spirit? NO! ... and WHO was it written by? What else were these godly men teaching? ...and it was Constantine who initiated this be done. And the faith taught? Works and obedience and many heresies (under the LIE that they were given authority by “God” in an apostolic succession of deceit, not Faith by Grace. And you said “you must understand the purpose/intent”... I do, it was UNITY... as in ‘catholic’ (universal.) AND... it was POLITICAL. When Rome decided “if you can’t beat ‘em (literally) join ‘em.” How does Rome solve a disagreement? One word ‘heretic.’[/color]

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

“the Cathechism”. Tradition, Philosophy and the Doctrines of men.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity DOTH ALREADY WORK: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

Pilgrim said:

[color:"0000FF"]The statements previously quoted in that thread... show Clearly that the Athanasian Creed utterly lacks scriptural focus WITH its very WRONG THEOLOGY -understanding of Salvation. THIS IS A HUGE STATEMENT... It cannot be discounted.... as these statements were indeed put down on paper and they reveal the LACK. Paul would not have written this. THIS CANNOT BE AN INSPIRED DEED (yes deed). No word should be added. You may say no word was added; “this is a statement”. This IS GOSPEL to YOU! This uninspired Creed is INFALLIBLE TRUTH says many. AND MANY are DECEIVED. It IS Denying that IN Jesus Christ IS the Fullness of the “Godhead”. You say No... But this is entirely the case... AND BELOW IS THE OBJECTION OF THE TRINITY DOCTRINE:[/color]

Jhn 14:10 Believest THOU NOT that I am in the Father, and the Father IN ME? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:(because he can’t... he is ‘man’) but the FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN ME, he doeth the works.

[color:"0000FF"]Question: Is that the Father, or a (separate) Holy Spirit of the Father... or the Holy Spirit?[/color]

And the one that CAN and Does speak of Jesus is the Father (WHO IS Spirit) the Same Holy Father (Spirit) that dwelleth in Jesus. The same Holy Spirit of God that appeared and spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush... that descended as a dove.. that moved across the waters of the earth and said “Let there be Light.” That overshadowed Mary... Yet Jesus is the Son of the Father... Yet conceived by the Holy Spirit. (2 persons)

I do NOT discount nor dishonor the relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.... The only way to know “THEM” (who are not ‘them’ but ‘I AM’ ) is IN JESUS. Can you know the Father Separately from Christ? NO. Holy Spirit? NO. SHEW us the FATHER? The distinction of Father/Son is Flesh/Spirit... We become born of Spirit in Jesus Christ... born anew OF HIM... and HE becomes our Father in that Birth Anew of Spirit. He was the First Fruit. He came as weak flesh, yet God (ONE Holy Spirit of God IN FLESH)... and submitted AS FLESH... subordinated to His Father... as ‘Son’ and that is the distinction of Father/Son... they are ONE in Holy Spirit. ***Was the Father crucified?Semper asks... NO, the Son was crucified... the Son ‘incarnate Word’ of the One God... who bore the distinction ‘SON’... as the HOLY SPIRIT OF Almighty God Came in the Flesh.... AND the FLESH died... (and that UNBLEMISHED FLESH and Life suffered the ABUSE and Bore the Judgment of our Sins FOR US) and the HOLY SPIRIT in Christ Jesus was not killed.... And WHO RAISED JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD?


for they tore down the temple of God (Jesus Christ , John 2:21 But HE spake of the temple of his body. ) and on the third day He raised it and ascended to Sion where even He is the Temple therein

Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days [/b]I WILL RAISE IT UP.[/b]

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and GOD THE FATHER, who raised him from the dead;)

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER,

Mar 8:29 And he saith unto them, But WHOM say ye that I am?

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

[color:"0000FF"]And in this JESUS CHRIST is OUR FATHER... the Holy Spirit of the FATHER... ONE HOLY GOD. THE ONE (in the Flesh) who yet said... Before Abraham was, I AM. This is the One who was crucified. THE IAM (in flesh). Do you pray to The Father, and then the Son... Do you pray to the Holy Spirit, also?[/color]


Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED Wonderful, Counsellor, THE mighty God, The everlasting FATHER, The Prince of Peace.

Are your thoughts a separate person? Your words a separate person? Your breath.. a person? Essence... stuff... with their own office of autonomy? Do you send your words places and they continue an autonomous interchange? You can send them in a letter... and in that sense they continue... but they do not dialogue further without the rest of you (ALL of you) engaged.


John 8:58 – Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM

Exd 3:14 And GOD said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus SHALT THOU SAY unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Jhn 6:48 I AM that bread of life.

Psa 118:26 Blessed [be] HE that cometh in the NAME of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

[color:"FF0000"] Jn: 8:24: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins.[/color]

John 4:23 - 24 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the FATHER seeketh such to worship him.GOD [is] A SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

2 Cor 3:17 Now [color:"FF0000"]THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT:[/color] and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty

Jhn 14:17 The SPIRIT of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it [/color:FF0000]SEETH HIM NOT[/color], neither knoweth him: but ye know him ; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless (future - in Spirit not in Flesh): [color:"FF0000"]I will come to you.[/color] (Jesus... said... ‘I” will come to you.)

1 John 1:3 – That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Matthew 1:18 – “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.”


[color:"FF0000"]CREED states: He was begotten ‘of the substance of’ the Father before time[/color] WHEN? IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD! THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA. I AM.

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

[color:"FF0000"]Job 38:28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?[/color]

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


[color:"0000FF"]To deny that Jesus Christ IS Fully God... Completely God... Father/Son/Holy Spirit is Anti-Christ. This is exactly what the Trinity doctrine does. I asked “Is it possible to consider Jesus Christ too important in ‘the God-head’ ?” (Godhead, BTW is a mistranslation Greek/Platonic term that means ‘gods’... the correct translation IS ‘fully God.’) Pilgrim, you said... “YES.” noting distinction, exception of ‘co-equality’ of persons. Sorry, Pilgrim... “co-equality” of these “persons” of the One Lord God is NOT scripture. PROVE IT, Any of you![/color]


Act 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased NOT to teach and preach JESUS Christ.

Isa 52:6 Therefore MY people SHALL KNOW MY NAME: therefore [they shall know] in that day that I [am] HE[b] that DOTH SPEAK: behold, [it is] [b]I.

Eze 36:23 AND I WILL SANCTIFY MY GREAT NAME, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen SHALL KNOW that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

Eze 39:7 So will I MAKE MY HOLY NAME KNOWN in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my HOLY NAME any more: and the heathen SAHLL KNOW that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

[color:"0000FF"]*********** tetragrammaton? think again. ************[/color]


Phl 2:10 That at the [color:"FF0000"]name of JESUS[/color] EVERY knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Rev 15:4]WHO SHALL NOT FEAR THEE, O Lord, and glorify [color:"FF0000"]THY NAME[/color]? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before THEE; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but [color:"FF0000"]NOW IS MADE MANIFEST[/color] to his saints:

Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in [color:"FF0000"]THE NAME of THE LORD JESUS[/color].)

Act 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee [color:"FF0000"]IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ[/color] to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

1Cr 5:4 [color:"FF0000"]IN THE NAME of our Lord Jesus Christ[/color], when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, THOUGHT IT NOT robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

[color:"0000FF"]* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

AND.... With this very insistance of “TRINTY” and co-equality (meaning to deny Jesus is indeed FULLY GOD the ALMIGHTY)

We wind up with the EXACT same Anti-Christ “IN SUBSTANCE / ESSENCE ” as below:[/color]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

...Below quoted... from an anti-Christ web site (brought to you from the other side.. yet the SAME SIDE of the very same anti-Christ


Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 3:13- The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our Fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up,... [/quote]


I fully believe in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ... Semper didn’t understand WHY I brought up THIS parable... As what it has to do showing up here (in this discussion)... I’ll post it again:


[color:"0000FF"]Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and HID in THREE MEASURES OF MEAL, till the whole was LEAVENED. [/color]


Even though I know where you stand.. it would benefit your understanding, if you haven’t already done so, to read “The Two Babylons” by Alexander Hislop (who BTW was a Trinitarian) It can be found at:[/b]
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/babylons/