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Needs to get a Life
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Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
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Welcome to the forum  Uhmm, I believe all this is answered here, however, lacknothing said,
I need some clarification on this subject. I am a member of a Southern Baptist Church and have mainly been Southern Baptist my whole life. For some reason I just can't get my heart to agree with the whole Predestination Theology. Is there a definitive verse or chapter in the Bible where It says that God chooses who goes to Heaven or Hell. I know it says that no man seeks after God. But it also says that "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3:9. Now that verse tells me that God wants and longs for ALL to come to repentance not just the ones he has chosen. You have taken 2 Peter 3:9 out of its proper context which states Peter’s intended audience: 2 Peter 3:8-9 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Peter was NOT making a “general” statement concerning “all” flesh, but rather a rather “limited” statement concerning the invisible church – the beloved. lacknothing said,
Ok now lets think logically, say I am an inventor and I have invented two wonderful machines that do similar things, lets just say one cleans my house and the other grooms my yard. Now do you think in your right mind that I would actually create one to fail? That I would say ok while the machine is cleaning my bathroom I want it to burst in to flames and burn all the way to dust. No! Of course not. The same goes for God. Why would God create human beings for ONE purpose and then send one half to Hell and the other half to Heaven? Why would he do that? Why wouldn't he give all of the humans time to repent and turn to Him so that they can live with him forever? Oh wait he is doing that 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that. Uhmm, God is not an inventor, He is the Creator. As Creator, He could have created a man that was incapable of falling -- but He didn't: “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!” (Romans 11:33). Paul anticipated your question in Romans 9 when he states, Romans 9:20-23 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, Why you are still replying against the very word of God. As God, God has certain rights. Why do you object to God acting according to His holy nature? Could it be, God desired us to more fully know Him and His love, holiness, and justice? If so, one could NEVER fully know God’s love, if He did not die for His elect, as the scripture states, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). Thus, for the fullness and glory of God’s love to be fully manifested someone had to die. Oh, but death means sin must enter into the world. Therefore, sin must needs come into the world to accomplish God’s very purpose. Was God clueless, or did He have an ordered plan? Paul writes, “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, … in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ (Eph. 1:4-5, 11-12). If it were not for election/predestination then NONE could have been saved as God would have been obligated by His very nature to judge “all” (without exception) and send “all” to Hell. However, God, before creation, choose whom He willed so He could show forth His mercy, love, and grace on one hand and reveal His justice on the other. lacknothing said,
If the Predestination Theology is correct then that would me that if a friend and I both come to Biblical repentance and give our lives to God. And follow Christ's example and live for the glory of almighty God as the Bible tells us to. So far we have done EVERYTHING required of us to be "born again", so by the teachings of the Holy word of God we are destined for Glory (Heaven). But by the Predestination Theology I and my friend still have just as much chance of going to Hell then me did before we repented and put our faith in Jesus. Uhmm, lacknothing, lacks something. Paul says, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). Who is the one that keeps His elect? This is why GRACE is so important. In “biblical” repentance, one does not save himself, Ephesians 2:8-9 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory.
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. As John says, “But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12-13). I am secure in that God: (1) began the work (John 15:16), (2) continues His work (Phil. 1:6), and (3) will accomplish His work (Rom. 8:33-39). In actually, truly elected people have NO POSSIBILTY of Hell. God has spoken it, He will also bring it to pass; He has purposed it, and He will also do it" (Isa. 46:11). “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1) and the only ones going to hell are, not the elect, but, those “who were before of old ordained to this condemnation” (Jude 1:4), as “he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth” (Rom. 9:18), as He has “power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor” (Rom. 9:21). Without the doctrine of predestination one could have no assurance at all, for then he must trust in himself alone – and we know the self always fails (Rom. 8:3, 5-7, etc.). If you read 1 John you will see that one indeed may have assurance of salvation. The elect are eternally secure and His elect may know this eternal truth. Of course, Paul sort of encourages us in the truth and seems rather sure when he says, Romans 8:33-39 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Hopefully you will have this same sort of assurance?
Reformed and Always Reforming,
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Entire Thread
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Predestination
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lacknothing
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:26 PM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:17 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:43 PM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:49 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:41 PM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:26 PM
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Re: Predestination
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John_C
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:45 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:38 PM
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Re: Predestination
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John_C
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:36 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:43 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:48 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Tom
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:50 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:49 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Joe k
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:56 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Pilgrim
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:06 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:51 PM
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Pilgrim
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:03 PM
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:22 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Pilgrim
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:53 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Paul_S
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:46 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jimbo
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:17 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:59 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jimbo
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:21 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:13 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:08 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:34 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Machaira
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:08 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:30 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Machaira
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Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:00 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:49 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Tom
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Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:30 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:20 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Machaira
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Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:53 AM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:02 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:41 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Adopted
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:58 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:02 AM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:00 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:43 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Adopted
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Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:17 AM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:48 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Adopted
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:01 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Machaira
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:14 AM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:06 PM
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Johan
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:49 PM
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Tom
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:04 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Machaira
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:48 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Pilgrim
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Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:34 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Pilgrim
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:52 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Joe k
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:15 AM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:18 AM
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Wes
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:40 PM
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jaf
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Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:55 PM
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Robin
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:16 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:11 PM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:18 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:53 PM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:40 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:02 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Tom
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:18 PM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:23 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Tom
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Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:33 AM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:30 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Paul_S
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:47 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Pilgrim
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:55 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:42 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:52 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:33 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:55 PM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:08 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:56 AM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:41 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:47 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Adopted
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:04 PM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:10 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:20 PM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:37 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:13 AM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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lookn4ward2heavn
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:08 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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CovenantInBlood
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:32 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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lookn4ward2heavn
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:19 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:49 AM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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Paul_S
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:52 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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lookn4ward2heavn
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:01 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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Robin
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:44 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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lookn4ward2heavn
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Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:31 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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Pilgrim
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Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:57 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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lookn4ward2heavn
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Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:17 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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Peter
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Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:22 AM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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Paul_S
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:56 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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lookn4ward2heavn
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Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:11 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:40 PM
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Ordo Salutis
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J_Edwards
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:57 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Theo
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:39 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Pilgrim
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:02 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jimbo
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:41 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:02 PM
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Re: Predestination
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jaf
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Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:23 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:21 AM
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jaf
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Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:47 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:59 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:39 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:33 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:50 AM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:42 PM
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