The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Predestination

Literal translations (and there are MANY) are made by authors. Translations use words. Words have different meanings in different contexts and thus choices have to be made in translation. Authors have presuppositions. Thus, presuppositions come into play. The authors with presuppositions closest to Scripture (thus far) are those that translated the Bible into the ASV. ASV is closest to the original text. It is available here. BTW, the church (as far as we know) does not have the “original” text, only copies – and thus I use the phrase accordingly – ah, translation.

Quick? To date there have been 62 replies available to read in this thread! There have been numerous articles mentioned. You do not understand how patient we have been. Some are not even responding to you now (Matt. 10:14-15; Mark 6:11; Luke 9:5; 10:10-12; Acts 13:50-51) because you have displayed and continue to display your unwillingness to learn (Rom. 16:17).

Rebuke is biblical! We learn from it. We grow by it. Faint not the writer of Hebrews says (Heb. 12:4-13).

I will not “secretly love” you, but I will rebuke you “openly” that you may hear “your Father’s instruction.” I will not flatter your lies with acceptance, so you may wallow in the “song of fools.” When you embrace Arminianism you embrace a lie – a sin – and as Paul said to Timothy, “Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.” When we preach “the Word” we “reprove and rebuke,” because we openly love and embrace the truth. The essence of our loving rebuke is that you “might be sound in the faith” and not be a protector and a promoter of lies. Christ loves you and thus He uses secondary causes – like us here at the Highway and many others – to rebuke and chasten “with all authority.” This is biblical: grow, learn, listen, and believe.

BTW, when we respond to “your words” we are not condemning you as a person, but correcting and challenging “your position.” I can hate your words and doctrine (Rev. 2:6) and still love you. You and your position are different entities. Being a former homicide detective, if I desired to hate your person, I could be much more imaginative. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This is good. However, be advised we are not mind readers – we try, but …. Thus, you need to write what you mean and mean what you write. Explain yourself. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. After you have been here for a while we will begin to understand you more, but for the time being, explain EXACTLY what you mean. Be specific with your wording, because all we have to evaluate you with is your words – or lack and misuse of them.

Every time you post you are either teaching the truth or a lie. We take this seriously.Thus, clarification will always be sought and correction and understanding made accordingly.

There is a difference in being taught outwardly by God and inwardly by God (1 Cor. 1:17-31; 2:14). Judas was never taught inwardly by the Spirit of God – he only heard the outward call of the Gospel – nothing more. What Judas did receive was “common grace” (Matt. 5:45).

God did not force Judas into His position. Satan did not play a Flip-Wilson (“the devil made me do it”) and make Judas do anything. Satan tempts us. Satan tempted Judas. Judas fell to the temptation because it was in his sinful nature to do so. All men “naturally” hate God (Rom. 3:10-18, etc.). This is our character – this is our disposition – no matter how much outward teaching we ever receive, without grace we would NEVER change.

God MUST judge all sin or He would not be holy God. Without election all would be condemned – and rightfully so. However, election allows God to operate in a life differently than in a person that is not elected (I say “allow” because otherwise God would be acting against His nature – He must judge sin in the sinner – and in the elect Jesus takes the judgment, et. al.). Because of what God predestined by His grace alone, elect man, when changed by the Spirit of God, will choose Christ “naturally” because he is a “new creature in Christ Jesus” (2 Cor. 5:17). The choice of Christ is a genuine choice by a new creation. It is a irresistible choice in that the new creation genuinely desires God – as opposed to his old nature that hated God (Rom. 1:30).

Just because God predestined Judas to do what He did, does not mean that God forced Judas to do what He did. While this is difficult to understand for our finite minds (this is for all of us, not just you), the best, yet not perfect example, is that of someone writing a play and then it being acted out. The Playwright (God) writes the script. Everything is written, as He desires it to be. It is a perfect script. In it, He writes of two types of people – elect and non-elect. He writes all the secondary causes – including Satan and his host. Each actor acts out his part “according to his nature.” The actors desire to act out their respective part. They each desire the part they are playing. The Playwright does not have to force the actors into anything – they do what comes naturally to them. Thus, the Playwright has written a perfect play that is being acted out by actors that desire their parts. The Playwright did not force a single actor to act out a part that was against their nature, but still wrote the script. Each actor acted out his part of the Playwright’s script willingly. Thus, we have predestination and the human will in the same play. (as with any example it cannot be taken too far …).

Another example I do not like as well still may help. A semi-auto pistol is made of several parts. It has a frame, a slide, a barrel, a safety, an ejector, an extractor, etc. All the parts are perfectly made – to exact specifications (God’s part). Now, I know that when I assemble a weapons’ parts together that they will all function a particular way (predestination) – God’s part. Now, though I assemble the weapon in a particular way, I do not force the parts to function against their nature – I merely make the weapon (draft the redemptive story) – God’s part (Eph. 1:11). All the parts function according to their own nature – the frame holds the magazine and trigger, the slide steadies the barrel and helps in the shell ejection, the ejector ejects the spent shell, etc. Now, I have manufactured a perfect gun, and though I have placed all the parts in a particular place, so they will function in a particular way, I have forced none of the parts to do anything against their nature – I did not say to the barrel to act as a slide, etc. I have placed each part perfectly. It is a prefect design. Adam pulled the trigger on God’s creation and everything was fine until he put some corrupt ammo in the gun, and then …. he and his descendants have continually missed the target every since. The gun now misfires, does not always extract spent shells, its aim is off, etc. …. The weapon was manufactured to function in a particular way and when “the way” was corrupted it followed yet another predetermined path of mis-function. Predestination and the will can co-exist. (remember, no finite example of that which is infinite is perfect).

Those who hold to “the truth” will normally always be in the minority. How large was the group that desired Christ not to be crucified? Many, like Festus will think your mad (Acts 36:24) and hate you without a cause (Luke 21:17; John 15:19; 17:14). You will finally be in the majority when you reach heaven.

BTW, if I think your stupid or an idiot, I will tell you directly. Don’t assume it otherwise. Again, you need to learn how to distinguish between what is “you” and what is “your position.” I never called your position stupid or idiotic -- just unbiblical.

God not only knows what actions you will take, but every action you would have taken if ……….. (fill in the blank). However, God’s predestination is not based upon what He knows will happen, rather His predestination is, or will be, reality -and this without violating another's will. He knows because He predestined and predestined because He knows. Remember that if God desired to change ANYTHING He could have (as long as it did not violate His nature) – He is God. However, the mere fact that He did not shows what – that He desired it “this way” and not another way, as He “worketh all things after the counsel of his will” (Eph. 1:11).

Now, I apologize if made you sorry with my previous post, however, I do not regret it,