I would like to start out saying this; I TRY to come to the scripture unbiased.. I never said I SUCCEED at coming unbiased.. I would have hoped that one who is so quick to rebuke one who is just trying to learn would have seen that.

Secondly, why do you say ASV is better than any other translation? I posted a quote from scripture the other day and I was informed that the Literal Translation was supposed to be just what it says, LITERALLY translated.. Not the translators opinion of how the scripture was written.. I ask only because I have access to the ALT, ASV, KJV, LITV, NIV, and maybe another one or so and because I cannot read Greek or Hebrew, I do not know which of these stands closest to the original text.

Thirdly, I again say that I would have hoped that one so quick to rebuke me would have read more into my question/statement rather than the wording I used.. When I said that I can sort of see both Armenian and Reformed views, I did not mean to suggest that I believe both are present.. This ties into my ATTEMPT at an unbiased approach and it seemed to make sense both ways I looked at it. J_edwards, I hope that you do not feel threatened by this, but I feel that you were in an argument mode where the entire point of your post was to argue me.

"Clearly, the ONLY ones taught of God are the ones enabled to hear God. Clearly, it is God who acts first to heal spiritual ears that His voice may be heard. Clearly, God is not Arminian"

I never said that God did not act first.. Again, YOU make assumptions into my questions/statements that were not intended by me. My question is probably better asked, and I say this now because I have inadvertently while reading some scripture today found my own answer; the original question was; Of the men who would be taught of God, do THOSE men still have a choice? I asked this because of the scripture pointing out Judas who would betray Christ was always with Him and being taught of God. Did Judas choose to give up Jesus to the guards, or did God "make" him? I have since my last post read about Grace always winning and therefore found my answer to "could they still choose no".. My question still remains though, did God "make" Judas give up Christ or did Judas choose it? I say "make" because in another post someone made the comment that God uses your circumstances and such things to "direct" the steps of men.. I feel that the only gain Judas had for giving Christ up was money, and in that way did God foreordain those men to offer him money, or did He allow Satan to use those men? I guess my real question is this, how does Satan play into our world if God has put everything into its place? Is Satan not then doing what he was made to do? If all this is true then how can we call this "evil vs good" battle a "war" as the Bible makes it out to be?

The Bible makes perfect relevance of this in talking about the armor of God.. To fight.... But fight what? What God has made to happen?

Please do not treat me like an idiot or get huffy puffy about my posts and ASSUME that I hold all I post here as truth.. I do not.. I am merely asking so that I may understand HOW and WHY a reformed follower would rebuke this line of thought.. Most of my family and friends would consider themselves Armenian and these are questions I am asked all the time.. To tell you the truth I lean more towards Reformed than anything else.. I just have doubts because I seem to be in a minority especially around my family and friends.

I have 2 more things real quick before I end this post..

J_edwards.. You assume a definition that I did not state about foreknowledge.. You did not even quote my whole statement into your own post.. I stated in my post that I understand that a Reformed definition of foreknow or to know is strictly speaking of PERSONS and NOT their actions.. I was merely asking if your definition also included the idea that if you really know a PERSON and their HEARTS and MINDS, do you not also know their actions?

and lastly..again, another assumption made by J_edwards..My question about knowing my sister and not knowing another 2 year old was just a way of trying to explain my thought.. God "knows" everyone.. He created them, I would surely hope that He "knows" them.. I never meant for it to come off as He would have to learn about that person.. My use of KNOW was supposed to show an INTIMATE knowing.. Because unless I am mistaken, that is what separates me from a, what do you call them.. an unregenerate person? I am able to intimately know God and speak with Him.. others who have not turned to Christ cannot do the same.. My other point was that God already knows us, our most intimate thoughts to ourselves, our deepest darkest secrets and everything about us and so my question from here came as this.. Would He NOT ALSO know the actions of the thing He created?