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ORIGINAL SIN The main chapter to consider when looking at the doctrines of original sin and original guilt is Romans 5.12-21. Here Paul makes clear that because Adam sinned death came into the world, a death which has become the lot of every man. However interpretation needs to be made carefully. The Roman Catholics believe that man is born, not only with a taint of sin but with fully fledged guilt because of Adam’s sin. That because the first man sinned we are all guilty and therefore deserving of punishment regardless of what we have or have not done. They would cite verses 16-18. Of course this then fits into their teaching that every child must be baptised to be cleansed from sin, and gives tremendous power to the church which is thus able to control man’s destiny. There is little backing for this in Scripture. Baptism is never seen in the Bible in such a literalistic way. Indeed Peter specifically states that baptism is ‘not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God’, while baptism is portrayed either as a picture of the pouring out of rain producing spiritual life (by John the Baptiser) or as a picture of dying and rising again in Christ (by Paul - Romans 6.4). The thought of washing is totally absent. But what does Romans 5.12-21 specifically teach? It certainly seizes on the sin of Adam and the universality of death as connected, but v.12 points out that that is because all men sin. They do not suffer for Adam’s sin but for their own sin (compare Ezekiel 18.19-23). He does not deal with the question of the baby not yet in a position to sin. He goes on to argue that by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners (v.19) but that is only to argue that man’s disobedience has resulted in disobedient man. Sin now reigns over man with a tendency to selfishness and rebellion against what is good. And this is revealed in his outward life. It is a fact of history. But can a man be punished for another’s sin? Ezekiel specifically repudiates such a thought. How indeed can someone be guilty of what someone else has done? This assumes a doctrine of the solidarity of the human race, of a sharing in guilt, which is foreign to the idea of freedom and individual responsibility. It is certainly nowhere clearly taught in Scripture. (We speak sometimes of ‘collective guilt’ but this results from the fact that men actually partake in that guilt either because of their actions or because of their failure to act when they should. They are individually guilty. But their babies are not!). It appears to us that it is dangerous to take Paul’s language, which is using a general illustration (the universality of death and sin) to enable him to move on to a specific point, and press it to something that is beyond logic and reason. Righteousness in Christ is possible, not because He was a righteous man who can somehow pass on credit to us, but because He was the righteous God made man, Who in His manhood bore the judgment of sin, and as God takes us up into Himself. Adam was never this. He was indeed the first individual, but he was never more than an individual. What Paul is stressing in Romans 5 is that there has now come One Whose impact on the human race can even be greater than that of Adam. The emphasis is on Christ not on Adam. Another verse often quoted in this regard is Psalm 51.5. but here the Psalmist is using hyperbole, a vivid picture, to bring out his deep awareness of his sin. He is not expounding a doctrine but expressing a feeling of revulsion at his own sinfulness, but it is his specific sin that he has in mind and for which he seeks forgiveness. He is not pleading a doctrinal position. He sees himself as needing forgiveness because he has actively sinned, not because he was born ‘sinful’. So it would seem to me that the doctrine of original sin is a doctrine based on the historical fact that there is a tendency in all men (Adam included) that inevitably results in sin, and that Adam began it all, rather than a doctrine dealing with the question of why we face final judgment. The latter is because WE sin, not because we are born potential ‘sinners’. The above is a quote from Peter Pett a baptist minister in England, but has been edited by Jim_M
Isaiah 7:16 "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken. (NAS95)
We are born with a spiritual nature, a fleshly nature and a freedom to choose which we will serve, which are you choosing today? John 3:6 flesh gives birth to flesh, but the spirit gives birth to spirit. Philippians 3:3 we who worship by the spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh.
We do not fall because Adam fell, we fall the same way he fell, by disobedience and not trusting in God. We all fall, but we fall because of our choices not Adams.
39 'Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it. (NKJV)
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Entire Thread
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Predestination
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lacknothing
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:26 PM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:17 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:43 PM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:49 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:41 PM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:26 PM
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Re: Predestination
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John_C
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:45 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:38 PM
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Re: Predestination
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John_C
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:36 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:43 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:48 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Tom
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:50 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:49 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Joe k
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:56 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Pilgrim
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:06 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:51 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Pilgrim
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:03 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:22 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Pilgrim
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:53 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Paul_S
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:46 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jimbo
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:17 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:59 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jimbo
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:21 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:13 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:08 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:34 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Machaira
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:08 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:30 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Machaira
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Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:00 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:49 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Tom
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Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:30 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:20 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Machaira
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Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:53 AM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:02 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:41 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Adopted
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:58 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:02 AM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:00 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Clint
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:43 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Adopted
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Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:17 AM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:48 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Adopted
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:01 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Machaira
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:14 AM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:06 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Johan
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:49 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Tom
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:04 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Machaira
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:48 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Pilgrim
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Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:34 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Pilgrim
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:52 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Joe k
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:15 AM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:18 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Wes
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:40 PM
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Re: Predestination
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jaf
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Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:55 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:16 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:11 PM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:18 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:53 PM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:40 PM
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Re: Predestination
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lacknothing
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:02 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Tom
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:18 PM
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Re: Predestination
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J_Edwards
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:23 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Tom
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Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:33 AM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:30 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Paul_S
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:47 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Pilgrim
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:55 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:42 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:52 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:33 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:55 PM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:08 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:56 AM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:41 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:47 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Adopted
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:04 PM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:10 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:20 PM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:37 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:13 AM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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lookn4ward2heavn
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:08 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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CovenantInBlood
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:32 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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lookn4ward2heavn
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:19 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:49 AM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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Paul_S
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:52 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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lookn4ward2heavn
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:01 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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Robin
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:44 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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lookn4ward2heavn
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Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:31 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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Pilgrim
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Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:57 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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lookn4ward2heavn
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Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:17 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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Peter
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Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:22 AM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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Paul_S
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Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:56 PM
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Re: Predestination - Total Depravity Central?
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lookn4ward2heavn
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Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:11 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:40 PM
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Ordo Salutis
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J_Edwards
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Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:57 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Theo
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:39 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Pilgrim
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:02 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jimbo
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Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:41 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:02 PM
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Re: Predestination
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jaf
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Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:23 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:21 AM
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Re: Predestination
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jaf
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Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:47 PM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:59 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Robin
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Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:39 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:33 AM
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Re: Predestination
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Jim_M
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Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:50 AM
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Re: Predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:42 PM
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