I ask very intrigued here, what do you see this as saying? I try to come to scripture from an unbiased perspective so that I may not see it and jump to OH MEN HAVE FREE WILL!! or visa versa, OH HOW WE WERE ALL CHOSEN!!! type of attitude and I see a little of both in this set of scripture.. I downloaded VIA e-sword the LITERAL TRANSLATION and so that is what I am reading, (in hopes of not getting a poor translation)..

Starting in verse 37 of John 6 I would see a reformed view.. Who ever the FATHER GIVES will come and in no way be cast out.. I see that much so I would assume that is what you meant for me to get? and then into verse 38 I see that Jesus is saying that he came out of heaven NOT FOR HIS WILL but for the will of HIS FATHER whom sent Him. and then He continues to say that the will of the Father is that all He was given will not be lost but raised up on the last day..

So far I see a reformed theme here.. God is giving Christ the people, and of these people NONE shall be lost and in fact the will of God is not only to keep from losing any, but to raise them up.. Verse 40 is kinda where I start to see the other side, (I would never call myself or my view of Armenian true Armenian because I do not believe that I could or anyone could lose there salvation)... Between verse 40 and 43 Jesus is talking to the crowd at His home town and they ask in a very con deciding way, is this not the same boy who grew up here who now tells us He is God?? They are mocking Him.

Yet verse 44 gets thick.. No one is able to come to Christ unless God draws them, and they will be raised on the last day. Verse 45 however quotes Isa. 54:13 saying ,"It has been written in the Prophets, They "shall" all "be taught of God." So then everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me;

So EVERYONE will be taught OF God but not all will learn from Him or in other words, believe in Him. I see that much as well.. Yet it still sounds like they were all given equal opportunity. They were all taught OF God and therefore were able to believe or not to believe..

Because I am not real familiar with this book, I was a little lost through some of the next verses but I understand the connection made to Numbers 20ish.. About the Land that was promised being seen, and then denied because 10 of the 12 scouts said it couldn't be done and so they wandered the wilderness eating mana for 40 years.. I caught that.. But I was lost with some other stuff.. Beyond the point, back to where I sort of find understanding..

Verse 64.. But there are some of you who are not believing. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were, the ones not believing, and who was the one betraying Him. And he said, "Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me except it is given to him from My Father."

Here it seems as if Jesus said Because He knew from the beginning who was going to betray or believe, that He told them that no one was able to come to Him except that which was given by the Father.

Towards the end it seems as if there was a more equal choice for everyone who was taught OF God, and because there was a foreknowledge of who would believe or betray, that Gods choice was made.. I understand that Calvinists definition of foreknew or knew is different than most.. And I feel that from this definition comes the affirmation of my belief.. Foreknow or Know in the Bible refers to the knowing of a person and not "actions" so to speak, yet if you know someone, do you not also know their actions? I have a 2 year old sister that I know.. I love her and interact with her, and I could tell you her actions in certain situations BECAUSE I know her.. I could not walk down the street to a random house, look at their 2 year old child and tell them what their kid would do in ANY situation because I DO NOT know that child.. Am I wrong in this assumption??

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />