Lookn4ward2heavn,

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You stated:
I would tend to disagree
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(with Robin, who said):
...the depravity of humankind is at the center of the debate about predestination...The depravity of humankind is central to this larger question of predestination...
based on the concept of "unconditional election" wherein (if I correctly understand it) the divine choice excludes any consideration of the person's state whatsoever, whether they are "totally depraved" or not.

Actually it can be--and has been--well argued (linked below) that the rebuttals to Arminius stand or fall as a unit when viewed as a construct. If I may presume to speak for Robin, I think his point is that from the perspective of the unredeemed sinner the fact of one's own utter inability to turn aside the dread wrath of God must be grasped--by God-given faith in Christ--before the remaining 4 points can be true, known, or appreciated. In other words "T" describes our condition; "ULIP" is entirely about the monergistic activity of God in delivering us from that wretched state.

Of course God acts first in "U", thus making that point first in logical order of succession, but the fruit of that election will never known by those who resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit who shows them how "T" they really are (thus the impossibility of being forgiven the sin against the Holy Spirit).

That is why all Christ-exalting evangelism and preaching must never move into the causes ("ULI") or benefits ("P") of salvation without beginning at "T"--our wretched, lost, miserable condition.

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You stated:
The issue regarding predestination is "Unconditional Election", which is (it seems) the heart and soul of Calvinism.


While "U" is probably the most "talked-about" of the 5 points, J.I.Packer makes the brilliant assertion that the heart and soul of Calvinism is not really any of the 5 points alone, but rather the glorious gospel that:

[color:"FFFF00"]God Saves Sinners![/color]

If one's response to that statement is a variant of "of course--everyone knows that", he has not begun to know the depth of his own offensiveness to the thrice-holy Jehovah. If, however, the Holy Spirit has truly convicted one of his sin, after crying out in truth "God be merciful to me a sinner!", and going on his way justified in Christ, he can only ask "why me? why me?", and the knowledge of his unconditional election in eternity past, the particular appointment of redemption to his own wretched person, the emboldening sweetness of grace amazing to his fearful soul, and the certainty that he cannot be snatched from his Father's hand are precious truths which strengthen him as he looks, and walks unashamedly, forward to heaven.

In Christ,
Paul S