The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum MJM, 5-Point Calvinism and the Bible

MJM,

You may have "studied" Calvinism and more in particular Supralapsarianism and Infralapsarianism, but unfortunately it would appear that you didn't comprehend the truth of what they hold to be true. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

The order of the decree(s) has no bearing upon this issue of "foreknowledge", which you hold to be mere prescience (foreknown facts), which the Scriptures do not teach as the word is not used in that manner. Further, the fact according to the Infra scheme, that God actually decreed the Fall and and then elected and predestinated a remnant to be saved, does not negate the fact that it was God's eternal counsel and not some fictitious prescience of events which didn't exist that determined who would be saved.

The semi-Pelagian/Arminian/Open Theist positions are similar enough in this matter in that they all state that God's observes the actions/decisions of men and upon that basis decrees what shall be. Honestly..... the idea is so preposterous that it really doesn't deserve anyone's time to try and refute it. But the biblical truth must be defended against such novel ideas and have been throughout history. What you are proposing reminds me of something out of the fictional "StarTrek" series. It seems that there is this sub-space anomaly where there exists multiple universes; one actual and the others tentative and in a constant state of flux. I'm sure that Data could explain the phenomena better than I. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

So, you would have us imagine that God sat back and observed a non-existent world where non-existent humans made free-will decisions determined by non-existent secondary causes and upon that basis (foreknowledge) He decreed what would actually be and consequent to that "foreknowledge" created all things. The problems with this scenario are infinite, even at face value. And since I have dealt with them myriad times here over the years, I really don't care to type out yet another detailed response to show the absurdity of this view.

However, what I will say is that even if for the sake of argument, I accepted your premise, i.e., that based upon the foreseen actions of men God determined all things, it would still mitigate against your view for a couple of reasons. (1) If God determines what shall be, then NOTHING can change that and thus "free-will" cannot exist. For God's decree fixes ALL things, including secondary causes and thus any decisions made by men are also fixed and not "free". OR, (2) If the will of men are nonetheless "free", i.e., they are capable of acting contrary to a person's nature, then it is impossible that the end could be absolutely sure. Just these two items alone put you in an inescapable conundrum which none have been able to escape. Other insurmountable problems could be mentioned, e.g., biblical prophecy would be an impossibility, as it could never be guaranteed that it would be perfectly fulfilled in manner or time, etc.

To answer your previous question to William, re: Did God decree that men would sacrifice their children, etc... the answer is unquestionably "Yes!" Equally so, those who did sacrifice their children, did so most freely and in accord with their natures and thus they are accountable for their horrid acts. This is but a mere flash in the pan compared to the crucifixion of the Lord Christ, Who was murdered by the free acts of men which God had foreordained by His determinate counsel. When the Confessions state that God "allows" certain acts of men, it has no reference to some fictitious "foreknowlege" of foreseen events, but rather it is speaking of the manner/means by which God providentially brings these acts to pass; e.g., using secondary causes, which the WCF, for example, makes clear.

John Calvin dealt with this fallacious view centuries ago, when he wrote against Albertus Pighius. See here: Calvin's Calvinism, translated by Henry Cole.

In His Grace,