Kyle wrote:[color:green]<br>Adam, as the head of mankind, has his sin imputed to us. Thus we all fall under the condemnation of Adam. Adam also passes his curse, original sin, on to us. Thus we are all born with sinful natures. In the same way, Christ, as the head of His Church, has His righteousness imputed to us. Thus we all fall under the justification of Christ, the Second Adam. Christ also passes His blessing, the Holy Spirit, on to us. Thus we are born again with new natures. If Christ actually did die for the sins of all men, then all are redeemed, all have His righteousness imputed to them, all are born again with new natures.<br></font color=green><br>This expresses the Calvinist view nicely. I agree with what you say about Adam, that we all are born with sinful natures but I would add that we all individually sin also as an act on our part. (Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.) <br><br>The last sentence about Christ as the second Adam, I would say He did die for the sins of all men and they are all redeemed and they all have the potential to have His righteousness imputed to them, if they but ask and receive. (Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.)<br><br>kyle:[color:green]<br>"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." If we are elect, we will bear the fruits of our election: We will repent, we will come to know the joy of Christ, we will grow in faith in Him, we will obey God out of love for Him. I have faith in my salvation because I have seen these fruits in me, even though my flesh wages war against me. But this faith is not my work, but the work of the Holy Spirit in me. I could not come to this faith on my own. The Armenian position says otherwise: That I can have faith on my own, apart from the work of the Spirit in me. How is this possible, if I am "dead in trespasses and sin"? If I have enough goodness in me to muster up faith, why not enough to muster up perfect obedience without Christ? In short, the fatal flaw of Arminianism is that it takes neither man's fallen nature nor the imputation of Adam's sin to us seriously enough. It expects that we have enough goodness to approach God, and also that we have power enough to resist God's will.<br></font color=green><br>The evidence of election, salvation and new birth is fruit. Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. So we agree on this point 100%. The question that follows is the big one. Have you never seen a person come to Christ with fruit of repentance, joy of salvation, growing in faith, obedient to God out of love for Him, exactly as you see in your self, and then fall away? Has it never happened?<br><br>This is a remarkable union of man with God that is accomplished through faith. (Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God) Faith on our part is nothing but an empty hand that reaches out until it is met by the grace of God.<br><br>Where I disagree with your statement is that you can not have faith when you are dead in trespasses and sins. Every descendant of Adam has faith. If you walk into a dark room and flip the switch on the wall it is an act of faith, you don’t know the light will come on but you believe it will. You pull the gear shift in your car to ‘R’ and look behind you because you have faith the car will go backwards. We have faith in each other in our relationships; child-parent, husband-wife, sometimes even brother-sister.<br><br>Faith in God is not different than the faith we use every day for all kinds of things. Our fallen nature has nothing to do with our ability to have faith any more than our personal IQ. There is nothing special or divine about faith (there is a spiritual gift of faith, I’m not talking about that). It’s when the faith of man reaches out to the gift of God that the miracle happens. <br><br>You ask, if I can have faith why not obedience without Christ? Faith is not works. Obedience is doing works and by works shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.)<br><br>Armenians do not expect that we have enough goodness to approach God. That is totally false and a gross misrepresentation. It would be against everything in the Bible to hold such a view. I suppose this comes out of your perception of faith.<br><br><br>Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. <br>Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. <br>Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. <br>Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. <br>Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? <br>Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! <br>Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? <br>Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. <br><br><br>Kyle:[color:green]<br>Then our salvation is dependent upon OUR WORK OF RESPONDING FAVORABLY TO THE GOSPEL. Responsibility for our salvation then rests with US, not with God. We may then boast in OUR OWN ABILITY to believe on the promises of God, rather than in God's mercy in Christ's dying for us while we were yet sinners.</font color=green><br><br>Our salvation is dependent on the work of Christ on the Cross. Receiving salvation is dependent on our FAITH. (Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.) Faith is not works. <br><br>Responsibility for our salvation rests with us. Some of it does, yes. (Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.)<br><br>[color:green]<br>If nothing we can do saves us, but only what God does, then the Calvinist view is the most compatible with Scripture.<br></font color=green><br>If that statement were true, you would not need scripture. That is the contradiction, but you apparently don’t see it, do you?<br>
