you say :

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Likewise God must "endure" the vessels of wrath.


this comes from rom 9 where we find in vs 21 these words :

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump toto make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The word make here is defined :1) to make

a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.

b) to be the authors of, the cause

c) to make ready, to prepare


d) to produce, bear, shoot forth

e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self

f) to make a thing out of something

g) to (make i.e.) render one anything

1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that

2) to (make i.e.) declare one anything

h) to put one forth, to lead him out

i) to make one do something

1) cause one to

j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)

2) to do

a) to act rightly, do well

1) to carry out, to execute

b) to do a thing unto one

1) to do to one

c) with designation of time: to pass, spend

d) to celebrate, keep

1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover

e) to perform: to a promise

Don`t try to say that paul is talking about fallen mankind, he is not. he uses the word clay. Pelos

which is :1) clay, which potters uses

2) mud (wet clay)

Check everywhere the word is used in the N. T and it never means fallen humanity, that is a forced interpretation. Paul is merely making the point that God has the right to make a person the way He wants to.

doulos says:
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You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. (Eze 28:15)


First, he says you were perfect in your ways, not that you were perfect as in sinless <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />

second, since you harp on context, who was speaking ? and who was being spoken to ?

Third, if you say it is satan to whom he is speaking before he fell, then what does it mean iniquity was found in him, not that he committed iniquity, but it was found in him..Iniquity was in him all the time, but it manifest it self...


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.