Quote
speratus said:
Quote
CovenantInBlood said:
Quote
speratus said:

Again, you are going beyond the scriptures to construct a doctrine that does not exist. Romans 9:21 says God has the authority from one lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. Isolated from other verses, there is nothing here that says that God makes a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor. Romans 9:21 is not a proof text for predestination of election or reprobation. Your other reference texts are proof texts for election not reprobation.

Why would Paul make this teleological defense if God did not reprobate some? He's been arguing exactly that God has reprobated some, leaving them in their sins: Ishmael, Esau, and Pharaoh. Whereas He has elected some to save from their sins: Isaac, Jacob, and Moses. In response to the indignant man who cries out, "Why doth He yet find fault? for who hath resisted His will?" Paul makes clear that it is God's prerogative to do as He pleases, preparing some vessels for destruction and some for glory, all with the purpose of showing forth His own glory. This argument makes no sense if it is a mere hypothetical, especially since Paul goes on to show how this is a fulfillment of prophecy!

I agree that Paul's argument is not merely hypothetical; however, Paul does not say God made any vessels of dishonor. Adam, at the instigation of the devil, made himself and all his seed vessels of dishonor. In the preceding verses, Paul says nothing about God creating fresh evil in Ishmael, Esau, or Pharaoh. In the following verses, Paul speaks about God making vessels of honor not vessels of dishonor.

Speratus, are we reading the same verse? It is the whole of Romans 9. Not one verse in isolation. You are confused about what reprobation actually means, and it is common. One thing it does not mean is that God makes people EVIL or Sinners. Just look at those elected, Moses was a muderer, Noah was a drunk, Abraham a polygamist, David an adulterer and murderer, etc etc etc. The irony is compare these people to those in MAtt 7 whom the Lord condemns as He never KNEW them. These people appeared "good". You must stop thinking that those who espouse an active, postitive action by God to reprobate, does not at all mean he created them with some extreme evil. But He does create them with their damnation in view. Hence their continued unbelief, continued disobedience, continued sin that is not redeemed by the blood of Christ. Plus I keep harping on this point, Reprobation is His Sovereignty, Condemnation is His justice. Just like Election is His Sovereignty and Salvation in His Mercy.

There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.